FAIR is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of the doctrine, practice, and history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Discussão:Joseph Smith/Polygamy/Marriages to young women
Helen Mar
- A friend pointed out some flaws in logic involving Helen Mar Kimball (see http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sanemormon&msg=2605.8 ). His flow of logic makes sense to me. However, since accepting what he says would pretty much mean changing that entire section, I wanted to run it by others first. Thoughts? TanyaSpackman 21:21, 7 Aug 2006 (MDT)
- Hmmmm...Firefox won't direct me past that URL to the web page. Can you post the pertinent material here (or at least recap it)? --MikeParker 22:16, 9 Aug 2006 (MDT)
- Sorry about that. Here it is. It's from Scott Quantz.
There are a couple of issues.
1. FAIR uses Todd Compton to support a theory that there was no sexual relations between HMK and Joseph Smith because there is no evidence there were any. Compton suggests that the marriage was purely dynastic and FAIR assumes that position in the first part of the treatment.
While I think there are some inherent problems with that theory which I will explain, the second part of the defense is a list of prominent men of the era that also married teenagers but they don't suggest thise marriages were purely dynastic.
So they are defending the notion that Joseph and Helen didn't have sex and then saying that it would have been socially acceptable if they had.
Pick on side of the coin and stay with it. If there was nothing unacceptable with Joseph and Helen having sexual relations within marriage, then why spend time trying to prove they didn't? If it wasn't acceptable then why justify its propriety by listing others who did marry young women and did have sex with them.
If it was wrong, then those men should be condemned while Joseph applauded for not having sex with HMK.
Then FAIR uses the HMK journal to indicate that because she never mentions any intimacy, that there wasn't any. Several of Joseph's wives wrote journals, including Emma. Only one, and it wasn't Emma's, states that she was Joseph's wife "in every way", possibly alluding to sexual intimacy. Clearly Emma was sexually involved with Joseph so her not mentioning it in her journal means nothing more than the fact that women of that era didn't talk about sex in the journals. Unlike modern women, these women were writing journals to inform and inspire their children; not to tittilate them.
My theory involves several pieces of evidence found in the journal. Upon hearing that her father wanted to marry her to Joseph, HMK was livid. She was not only very young, she was also in love with someone else.
Joseph was, no doubt, aware of this. It would make sense that he would not press any issues with sexual intimacy until such time as she was ready. Then, well, then he was murdered.
Joseph was keenly aware of the Lord's feelings concerning sexual relations within marriage.
"And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.
Therefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation; and that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made." (D&C 49:15-17)
The design of even dynastic marriages is to ensure a place for children.
I believe that, had he lived, Joseph and HMK would have eventually enjoyed a rich and meaningful marriage, including the joy of sexual intimacy.
TanyaSpackman 08:09, 10 Aug 2006 (MDT)
Sexual fixation
I think the following sentence makes a very important point:
- Critics who assume that everything "is all about sex" reveal more about themselves than they do about the minds of early Church members.
However, I think the tone of this comment is rather smug. I tried to improve this sentence a few times myself, but didn't like what I came up with. I think the best approach would be to find some scholarly article that addresses differences in attitudes toward the sexual nature of relationships in the 20th century vs. 19th century America. I'll look for some and report back if I find anything.... --RobertCouch 08:55, 5 Jul 2006 (MDT)
- Yes, this does need to be toned down. Take a look now — what do you think of my edit? --MikeParker 11:10, 5 Jul 2006 (MDT)
- Smug? MOI? :) Okay, it did sound that way. But I didn't mean it. Honest. Mike's edit is much better anyway, and is what I meant. Greg Smith 13:17, 7 Jul 2006 (MDT)
With reference to the following issue: "My theory involves several pieces of evidence found in the journal. Upon hearing that her father wanted to marry her to Joseph, HMK was livid. She was not only very young, she was also in love with someone else."
1. Helen Mar Kimball was livid but not for the reason you think. I suggest you look up the original source without Compton's ellipses.
2. What is your reference for Helen Mar being in love with someone else?
3. I also think that the relationship would have involved sexual relations at a later date but I do not believe that it was a connubial relationship right from the start although in Nauvoo young women were encouraged to marry as young as 14-years-old and young men as young as 17-years-old.
4. I hope to add to the Helen Mar Wiki as soon as I finish the project I'm on right now with should be in a couple of weeks. Doesn't that page indicate that the page is under construction/review or something?
p.s. How does this talk thing work anyways? It there a button or something or we just press edit?
Suzanne A.