Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink



A FAIR Analysis of:
MormonThink
A work by author: Anonymous
High Level Summary
Title MormonThink.com
Type Website
Author(s) Anonymous; Managing editor posts on ex-Mormon message boards under the name "mormonthinker." Original webmaster uses the pseudonyms "LDS Truthseeker" and "SpongeBob SquareGarments"
Affiliation "Active" members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Ex-Mormons active on the Recovery from Mormonism message board.
Accuracy Conclusions drawn are predominantly negative toward the truth claims of the Church.
Temple content NOTE: Extremely detailed temple content is present on the site.

A FAIR Analysis of the critical website MormonThink

Mormonthink.com is a site produced by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are interested in the historical accuracy of our church and how it is being taught to its members and portrayed in the media.
Statement at the top of the MormonThink website
Going to church, as current managing editor (other editors are not returning, are resigned or completely out) is for me to both build perspective (as footdoc pointed out, I am an artistic type, but also work in science) and to increase [MormonThink] credibility--that an attending mormon is actually one of the essential staff at MT. Most contributors to MT that are active are not for very long once all the information is viewed objectively
—Post by "mormonthinker" [David Twede] on ex-Mormon message board Recovery from Mormonism, September 7, 2012
Twede started contributing to MormonThink about four years ago and says he was recently asked to be managing editor when the former editor resigned after also being “confronted and pressured” by the Church leaders, according to Twede.
—"Mormons Want to Excommunicate Romney Critic," Daily Beast, Sept. 21, 2012.
I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow.
—MormonThink's former editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board Recovery from Mormonism, Feb. 21, 2012
So that is one of the reasons I remain in the church. It gives me greater credibility when I speak about my own religion instead of it being my former religion. We all know as soon as I leave it, I am labeled as someone who left because of morality, tithing or some other issue rather than the historical problems of the church....By subtly mentioning things in meetings I may raise some doubts...
—Comment posted by MormonThink's former editor on thread 'I am the webmaster of MormonThink.com AMA', ex-Mormon reddit, Jan. 2012
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Brief overview

The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." The site claims to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they are "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attend Church—they do not accept the Church's truth claims, and they have no interest in strengthening belief.

The site includes links to FAIR as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance." The true motivation behind the site is to persuade members to question their beliefs. One of the goals is to persuade the still-believing spouses of those who created the web site that the Church is false (it was for this purpose that they recently removed a large amount of temple content from the site, however, the new managing editor, David Twede, added this temple material back to the site before his local leaders asked him to remove it once again).

Each page typically includes large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apolgetics that are followed by refutations by critics, an "Ending summary by critics," and an "Our Thoughts" section, which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.

Recent press about MormonThink managing editor David Twede

On his blog, Twede talked about how he hoped that members of his ward would not find out that he was involved with MormonThink, fully aware that he could be called in for discipline.

I've returned to attend the Mormon church after five years of atheism. I have a very different perspective now and share my blog weekly....Last night I emailed Pat (my gender neutral pseudonym for the questioning wardmember). Pat’s question had been: why did I leave the church in the first place?...I don’t want anyone I meet in person to know I’m associated with, let alone managing editor at, MormonThink. I don't even want Pat to find it serendipitously -- It could get me in a sort of pickle and cut short my church activity....
—Blog posts by MormonThink managing editor David Twede posted at "Prozacville: Turning black-n-white minds into colorful paisley," September 2012.

Once the leadership of his ward became aware of this, they brought him in for a meeting with the Stake Presidency and Bishop,

[T]his Sunday's blog is delayed indefinitely due to me being confronted directly by leadership at church today. They are reading my blog. They know who I am--were, apparently, "inspired" somehow to learn my name. I don't want to jeopardize my MT position or others at MT by discussing any other details. We are being watched. I got a letter from them with my name and numbering my days, unless I stop writing for MT and blogging.
—Blog posts by MormonThink managing editor David Twede posted at "Prozacville: Turning black-n-white minds into colorful paisley," September 2012.

Twede was scheduled for a disciplinary hearing for apostasy at the end of September 2012. He chose to go to the media in order to force the Church to back off,

I'm taking my fight to the media, and there, hope to encourage the LDS church to repeal their decision to discipline me over my free speech.
Posted on Recovery from Mormonism by David Twede, September 20, 2012.

When Twede went to the media, he portrayed his pending excommunication as being the result of things that he had written about politics and Romney. This is how it was portrayed on Recovery from Mormonism and when it was picked up by The Daily Beast. Here is the beginning of the message that Twede sent to Steve Benson,

First, here is a prefatory comment by "MormonThink's" managing editor that he included with the initial news release:

. . . [J]ust thought you'd like to know the news (below). We are beginning to talk with the press about this, but could really use a big press contact if anyone has one. Thanks! David.



Now, the actual (and first version of) the news release: The LDS Church is taking punitive action against one of its members for something he wrote. Last week, on September 11, 13 and 15, David [last name deleted], the managing editor of MormonThink.com posted a series of articles on the political history of the LDS Church, as it relates to Mitt Romney’s campaign and Romney’s stubbornness of keeping his tax forms secret as it’s tied with LDS historical policies. As managing editor, David is a life-long, fifth-generation Mormon in good standing.
Posted by Steve Benson of Recovery from Mormonism, Sept. 20, 2012.

Several reporters who contacted Twede after the Daily Beast article came out were skeptical that the actually discipline resulted from his writings about Romney. They interviewed him and probed further. According to The New York Times,

Mr. Twede’s situation was first reported on Friday by the Web site The Daily Beast, which suggested that Mr. Twede was being disciplined because he had posted several articles on MormonThink critical of Mr. Romney.

In an interview, however, Mr. Twede said he was not certain that this was the reason he was facing excommunication. He has also written posts on his personal blog, linked to MormonThink, about how he recently started attending church again after five years as an atheist. He described how he had struck up a friendship with a Mormon he called Pat and had e-mailed materials to Pat and Pat’s spouse that he hoped would shake their faith.
Laurie Goodstein, "Editor of Web Site May Face Mormon Excommunication," The New York Times, Sept. 21, 2012 off-site

Joanna Brooks notes,

According to [Peggy Fletcher] Stack [of the Salt Lake Tribune], the major precipitant for the disciplinary council was not the essay questioning Romney’s political independence from the Church but rather a Mormonthink.com article that publicly disclosed details from LDS temple ceremonies, an act viewed by observant Mormons as an offense and a desecration.

According to [Laurie] Goodstein [of the New York Times], local LDS Church leaders called Twede into an impromptu Sunday meeting, interrogated him as to whether he was a “wolf in sheep’s clothing”—a phrase often used among Mormons to describe anti- or ex-Mormons who pose as faithful members in an effort to lure others away, and issued Twede a summons to a disciplinary council on charges of “apostasy.” Twede had acknowledged on his blogsite that he had attempted to influence a couple he met at church by emailing them frank information about controversial aspects of Mormon history, while concealing his own identity as an editor of Mormonthink.com.
Joanna Brooks, "Is Criticizing Mitt Romney an Excommunicable Offense? No.," Religion Dispatches, Sept. 22, 2012 off-site The Church also stated clearly that nobody is disciplined for their political views.

Michael Purdy, a church spokesman, said in a statement, “It is patently false for someone to suggest they face church discipline for having questions or for expressing a political view.” “Church discipline becomes necessary only in those rare occasions when an individual’s actions cannot be ignored while they claim to be in good standing with the church,” he wrote. “Every organization, whether religious or secular, must be able to define where its boundaries begin and end.”
Goodstein, New York Times, Sept. 21, 2012

After clearly stating to several reporters that the discipline wasn't about politics or Romney, Twede felt compelled to explain his public statements to the Recovery from Mormonism message board,

I want to clarify some things in the SLtrib piece. It's true that my local leaders never said "Romney" in my interrogation. They indicated discomfort with my recent writings as a whole, which includes three blog entries and one MT article discussing Romney that were posted from Sept 11-15. While referring to my writings, the stake president did say about himself, "I'm not a political man..." It is unclear to me what he meant by this and why he interjected it. Likewise, when it quote me that I didn't intend for it to go this way, I meant: I didn't intend for discussions of my excommunications to take on such a politcal tone. I would prefer the topic remain on the Mormon church's inability to defend its own position on this matter.
Posted by David Twede on Recovery from Mormonism, Sept. 21, 2012.

Finally, the next day Twede went back to Recovery from Mormonism and stated that he thought that it really was about politics,

I believe everyone involved from FAIR, the GAs and the stake leaders know clearly that using my Romney speech as the basis for excom would be a PR disaster. So you would never expect them to bring it up. Instead they will dance around anything they can find to halt the voices at MT. My feeling is the timing is very suspicious.
Posted by David Twede on Recovery from Mormonism, Sept. 22, 2012.

Ultimately, despite the fact that the Church stated that it wasn't about politics, and that Twede himself stated that it wasn't about politics to several reporters (including the New York Times), Twede now insists that it really was about politics based upon his "feeling." (Ironically, critics of the Church have a low regard for "feelings" and the Holy Ghost when it is used to confirm the truthfulness of the Church).

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Sub-articles


== Responses to the content of the website are located in the following sub-articles:

Overview of the MormonThink website

Summary: The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The former webmaster of MormonThink posts in several online ex-Mormon message boards under the names "SpongeBob SquareGarments," "mormonthink," and "LDS Truthseeker". The current webmaster is David Twede, who posts on Recovery from Mormonism as "mormonthinker." The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered in his own words, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that his site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.

Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"

Summary: According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FAIR's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FAIR believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm) The website concludes that at least two Apostles have mentioned the use of the hat in public discourses which appeared in print, and at least one believing LDS defender of the faith has mentioned it on television. This, according to them, is "astonishing," since they conclude that if members or investigators knew that Joseph used a stone and a hat instead of two stones in a set of spectacles, and that he didn't need to look directly at the plates instead of viewing a mysterious conversion of reformed Egyptian characters to English words, that they wouldn't want to join the Church.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm) The critics take the position that if an animal does not appear in a picture on a wall in a ruin, then it must never have existed. The critics claim that FAIR avoids mentioning certain Book of Mormon verses "at all costs," despite the verses being avoided actually appearing in the FAIR Wiki article on the subject. It is also claimed that apologists must be "embarrassed" when they correct mistakes based upon new data, and that apologists wish to redefine animals as different animals.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm) The critics take the position that it should be "relatively easy" to locate the first temple built by Nephi's group of 30 to 40 people among the ruins of Mesoamerica (which have only been 5% explored due to the difficulty of uncovering ruins in the jungle). This also despite the fact that Mesoamericans tended to build their new temples on top of their older ones. They also assert that the Nephites and Lamanites should have used the wheel, despite the difficulty of the terrain. It is also asserted that none of the numerous archaeological remains located in the Americas could possibly be related to the Book of Mormon, including those 95% yet uncovered in Mesoamerica. Finally, the critics conclude that despite solid evidence and correlation between the Book of Mormon narrative and the location in the Old World called NHM, that it simply doesn't count as evidence for the Book of Mormon.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm)This MormonThink article concludes that the Book of Mormon really isn't that special, and that pretty much anyone could have written it. It is asserted that Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon or Oliver Cowdery, or some combination thereof, used the work of Solomon Spalding, or Ethan Smith, or some combination thereof, to create the Book of Mormon without any assistance from God. The authors note that non-LDS authors are not impressed with the Book of Mormon enough to believe that it could "not have been written by a man," and that the Book of Mormon is not as impressive and complex as novels such as the Lord of the Rings or A Tale of Two Cities. The authors also conclude that Joseph was indeed educated because he was "home schooled," despite Joseph's own words stating that "we were deprived of the bennifit of an education suffice it to say I was mearly instructid in reading and writing and the ground rules of Arithmatic which constuted my whole literary acquirements." Regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon, it is noted that Joseph used a curtain to shield the process of translation from those around him so that he could consult all of his notes, and that Emma was lying when she stated that Joseph openly translated in the presence of others using a stone and a hat without the use of notes, despite the numerous other witnesses that confirmed the use of the stone and the hat.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"

Summary: Among the conclusions that the critics make in this page are 1) That Joseph must have lied and made up the story about the 116 lost pages of manuscript and 2) That a South Park episode provides "the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle": "Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?"

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm) The web page asserts that Moroni's visit would have awakened the rest of the Smith family, and that Church artwork does not accurately show Joseph's siblings asleep in the room during Moroni's visit, except those paintings that actually do show it. It is also asserted that if the Church continues to use artwork that shows Joseph alone in bed during Moroni's visit, that the Church is "not becoming more open and forthright about this issue." It is indicated that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm) All we have to say is: Get with the program. The new data obliterates any old apologetics on the subject. Apologists update their positions based upon the discovery of new data. Continuing to quote old apologetics and calling the new data an apologetic "ploy" is simply a load of nonsense. Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which actually had nothing to do with Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton matched the explanation given for the character in the GAEL.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Witnesses"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm) The website concludes that the witnesses may have only seen the plates in a vision, despite their repeated assertions that they saw them with their own eyes, and that some witnesses only saw the plates when they were covered, although none of the three or eight witnesses are included in this group. The website notes that most of the witnesses left the Church (which is also clearly taught in Church), but does not comment on why not a single one of these witnessed exposed the alleged scam.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm) The website takes the position that the First Vision "wasn't even known by church members until 1842," despite Joseph writing in his 1835 journal that he related the story to a man who happened to be visiting him. It is assumed that local newspapers would have been interested enough in a 14-year-old's claim to have seen God to have published it. They also claim that earlier accounts of Joseph's vision written by Joseph himself are not "official" (whatever that means), and that Joseph's different accounts of the First Vision are "relatively ignored" by the Church, despite an entire web page being devoted to them on lds.org and various mentions in the Ensign, including a statement by Gordon B. Hinckley. The website also repeats a claim that Joseph embellished his vision story in 1838 to bolster his leadership during a time of apostasy, despite the fact that he told the same story to strangers visiting his house three years earlier in 1835.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Polygamy"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm) The website concludes that Sunday School lesson manuals, priesthood manuals, seminary books, etc "almost never" mention Joseph's polygamy, despite the fact that some actually did mention it. They also claim we should believe that Oliver's claim that Joseph had an affair is true because Oliver was also a Book of Mormon witness. It is also concluded that Joseph wrote a "love letter" to one of his young plural wives and invited her and both of her parents to his single-room hideout for a tryst.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"

Summary: The critics assert that even though the Church has refuted explanations for the priesthood ban, such as that of blacks not being valiant in the pre-existence, that they are bothered that these explanations are no longer acknowledged. Critics wish to assert that President Kimball did not actually receive a revelation ending the ban, despite his clear statement that he did. The critics believe that prophets should be "forward thinkers." Critics, therefore, take the position that the fact that prophets are influenced by the society and culture that they live in indicates that they cannot actually be prophets.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"

Summary: The critics assert that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. They cite the incompatibility of scientific facts with the idea of a global flood, the earth being created over a period of 7000 years, and the idea that Adam and Eve could not have been the first people on the earth. The assert that if believers disagree with these fundamentalist ideas, that they must be at odds with the Church.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Translation"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm) Joseph reportedly made a false identification about the language and contents of a Greek Psalter (book of psalms written in Greek). The website claims that this action speaks to whether Joseph was a prophet and whether he was capable of translation. Curiously, it is also claimed that no "church" sources or websites discuss this matter, although they cite the Church-sponsored Maxwell Institute and Hugh Nibley. MormonThink states that this "wasn't really a translation," but concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Temple"

Summary: MormonThink originally removed this page containing detail information about the temple, not because it was offensive to Latter-day Saints, but only because it was driving ex-Mormons' believing spouses away from examining their critical website. The new managing editor has added the temple material back to the site "by popular demand." FAIR responds to a number of issues raised which are not related to the explicit temple content that they currently host.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"

Summary: The critics conclude that lying is "standard operating procedure for Church leaders" from Joseph Smith's time to the present, and that pretty much every thing that the Church does is somehow related to deception (this is a standard position taken by many ex-Mormons after their disaffection with the Church).

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"

Summary: The critics conclude that the Catholic definition of offerings is somehow supposed to affect the Mormon definition of tithing, and that the requirement by the Church for members to pay tithing and offerings is a "guilt trip." The critics also claim that the Church should divest itself of any profit-making businesses, and that any profit from those businesses should be given to the poor, classifying the Church as simply a corporation that does not provide sufficient return-on-investment to its members. Finally, the critics conclude that the Church spends little on humanitarian aid, and that members ought to send their contributions elsewhere.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Running with the Plates"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm) The website concludes that the plates didn't weigh 200 pounds, but instead that they weighed 40 to 60 pounds just as the witnesses stated that they did. The site also concludes that Joseph could not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child (this despite Joseph's physical health demonstrated by his vaunted "stick-pulling" abilities), and that his story of running with the plates is a "tall tale."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/jst.htm) MormonThink concludes that Joseph Smith's statement about the Book of Mormon being the "most correct book" means that there should be no mistakes in the text, despite the fact that the Book of Mormon title page (written by Mormon) itself states that any mistakes contained therein are the mistakes of men. They also claim that the JST footnotes in the LDS Bible are supposed to represent "correctly translated passages," yet acknowledges that Joseph was making "inspired" revisions rather than translating an ancient text. They conclude that translators who "go back to the original sources" have not "confirmed any of Joseph Smith's inspired version passages, and that the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible needs to be added to the "Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri, the Anthon Manuscript, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s Book of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the Greek Psalter" as demonstrations that Joseph lacked the ability to translate anything.

MormonThink Table of Contents

Summary: Correlation of MormonThink's Table of Contents with FAIR Wiki responses

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