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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink: Difference between revisions
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|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm}}) The website notes that at least two Apostles have mentioned the use of the hat in public discourses which appeared in print, and at least one believing LDS defender of the faith has mentioned it on television. They note that this is "astonishing," since if members or investigators knew that Joseph used a stone and a hat instead of two stones in a set of spectacles, that they wouldn't want to join the Church.
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "Most of us could probably accept the translation method more easily if we had always been taught about the 'stone in the hat' method but we have a hard time accepting it now knowing that the leaders know about it but all the Church manuals, paintings, Church magazines, Church website, Church movies, missionary discussions, etc. purposely show a very different method."
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|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 1)
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 1)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}}) The critics take the position that if an animal does not appear in a picture on a wall in a ruin, then it must never have existed in that region. The critics claim that FAIR avoids mentioning certain Book of Mormon verses "at all costs," despite the verses being avoided actually appearing in the FAIR Wiki article on the subject. It is also claimed that apologists must be "embarrassed" when they correct mistakes based upon new data, and that apologists wish to redefine animals as different animals.
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "While we cannot accept the Book of Mormon story as literally historical; we can, in a sense, accept the book as a somewhat symbolic embodiment of 'the American story' - the creation of a unique but "familiar" vision of manifest destiny, wars waged to protect the "liberties" of patriots, democracies created to secure the sanctity of these liberties, and the overarching struggle of good and evil - all roughly woven together within the framework of an American Christian apocalypse."
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|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 2)
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 2)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}}) MormonThink takes the position that it should be "relatively easy" to locate the first temple built by Nephi's group of 30 to 40 people among the ruins of Mesoamerica (which have only been 5% explored due to the difficulty of uncovering ruins in the jungle). This also despite the fact that Mesoamericans tended to build their new temples on top of their older ones. They also assert that the Nephites and Lamanites should have used the wheel, despite the difficulty of the terrain. It is also asserted that none of the numerous archaeological remains located in the Americas could possibly be related to the Book of Mormon, including those 95% yet uncovered in Mesoamerica. Finally, the critics conclude that despite solid evidence and correlation between the Book of Mormon narrative and the location in the Old World called NHM, that it simply doesn't count as evidence for the Book of Mormon.
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}})
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|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lost116web.htm}}) Among the conclusions that MormonThink draws in this page are 1) That Joseph must have lied and made up the story about the 116 lost pages of manuscript and 2) That a South Park episode provides "the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle": "Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lost116web.htm}}) This MormonThink article draws the following conclusion: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called "All About the Mormons". In the episode, a faithful LDS family tells the story of the lost 116 pages to a neighbor boy they are trying to convert. They tell this story as proof that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and Mormonism is true. Perhaps the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle comes from the neighborhood boy, who, after hearing the story of the lost 116 pages, exclaims "'Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?'"
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Revision as of 04:44, 6 December 2012



A FAIR Analysis of:
MormonThink
A work by author: Anonymous
High Level Summary
Title MormonThink.com
Type Website
Author(s) Anonymous
Affiliation "Active" members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Ex-Mormons active on the Recovery from Mormonism message board.
Accuracy Conclusions drawn are predominantly negative toward the truth claims of the Church.
Temple content NOTE: Extremely detailed temple content is sometimes present on the site.

A FAIR Analysis of the critical website MormonThink

I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow.
—MormonThink's founding editor, Feb. 21, 2012 [1]
So that is one of the reasons I remain in the church. It gives me greater credibility when I speak about my own religion instead of it being my former religion. We all know as soon as I leave it, I am labeled as someone who left because of morality, tithing or some other issue rather than the historical problems of the church....By subtly mentioning things in meetings I may raise some doubts...
—MormonThink's founding editor, Jan, 2012 [2]
If you would like to help further, please excommunicate the next editor at MormonThink. Have leaders of the [Strengthening Church Members Committee] stalk us. Even better, send in the Danites please. That should propel MormonThink popularity into orbit around Kolob.
—MormonThink managing editor David Twede, after emailing his resignation to the Church, October 19, 2012. [3]
∗       ∗       ∗

Overview

The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." The site claims to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they are "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attend Church—they do not accept the Church's truth claims, and they have no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FAIR as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."

Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apolgetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, an "Ending summary by critics," and an "Our Thoughts" section, which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.

MormonThink has had a series of managing editors, all of whom retained membership in the Church during their tenure while simultaneously mocking the Church's truth claims in online ex-Mormon forums. The transfer of the editorial position appears to be triggered by the resignation from the Church of the previous editor. The founding editor, who remains anonymous, resigned in 2012 in order to avoid discipline after the Church apparently identified him. In his parting letter to his Stake President (posted on the MormonThink website), he states,

You said that [MormonThink] is 'anti-Mormon, anti-Joseph Smith and anti-LDS Leadership'. However, you never said it wasn’t true.[4]

The most publicly well known managing editor was David Twede. Shortly after taking over the site, Twede was approached by local Church leaders and scheduled for discipline. After creating a media spectacle regarding his scheduled discipline, Twede resigned publicly during an appearance at the open mike session at the 2012 Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City. After emailing his resignation letter, Twede publicly challenged the Church,

If you’d like to help further, please, by all means, excommunicate the next editor at MormonThink. Have leaders of the Strengthening Members Committee stalk us. Even better, send in the Danites, please, please. That should propel MormonThink popularity into orbit around Kolob. [5]

MormonThink's directors consider Church attempts to impose discipline on their editors as a beneficial way of increasing traffic and visibility of the website, thus making Church membership more aware of its existence.

Media efforts in 2012 by Mormonthink managing editor David Twede

Summary: David Twede went to the media in September 2012 after claiming that the Church was attempting to discipline him for his online writings about Mitt Romney posted both on his blog and on MormonThink. Details regarding this effort may be found in the sub-articles linked here.

The specific content of the MormonThink website is addressed in the articles listed below

Click on the links for detailed point-by-point discussion of specific content.

Overview of the MormonThink website

Summary: The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.

Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FAIR's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FAIR believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that "Most of us could probably accept the translation method more easily if we had always been taught about the 'stone in the hat' method but we have a hard time accepting it now knowing that the leaders know about it but all the Church manuals, paintings, Church magazines, Church website, Church movies, missionary discussions, etc. purposely show a very different method."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that "While we cannot accept the Book of Mormon story as literally historical; we can, in a sense, accept the book as a somewhat symbolic embodiment of 'the American story' - the creation of a unique but "familiar" vision of manifest destiny, wars waged to protect the "liberties" of patriots, democracies created to secure the sanctity of these liberties, and the overarching struggle of good and evil - all roughly woven together within the framework of an American Christian apocalypse."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm)

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that "The Nephites and Lamanites were primitive peoples. Joseph Smith would have been considered a scholar compared to any Indians that lived 2,000 years ago. Yet we don't question that the ancient Indians wrote the original Book of Mormon, but we totally reject the idea that a 19th century man couldn't have done the same thing. That makes reason stare."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/lost116web.htm) This MormonThink article draws the following conclusion: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called "All About the Mormons". In the episode, a faithful LDS family tells the story of the lost 116 pages to a neighbor boy they are trying to convert. They tell this story as proof that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and Mormonism is true. Perhaps the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle comes from the neighborhood boy, who, after hearing the story of the lost 116 pages, exclaims "'Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?'"

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm) The web page asserts that Moroni's visit would have awakened the rest of the Smith family, and that Church artwork does not accurately show Joseph's siblings asleep in the room during Moroni's visit, except those paintings that actually do show it. It is also asserted that if the Church continues to use artwork that shows Joseph alone in bed during Moroni's visit, that the Church is "not becoming more open and forthright about this issue." It is indicated that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm) MormonThink, in this case, continues to quote old apologetics regarding the Kinderhook plates and actually refers the uncovering of new data clarifying the event as an apologetic "ploy." We note that the most recent new data on this subject presented by Don Bradley obliterates the old apologetic arguments. The new data suggests that Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which, by the way, actually has nothing to do with actual Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton matched the explanation given for the character in the GAEL.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Witnesses"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm) MormonThink concludes that the witnesses may have only seen the plates in a vision, despite their repeated assertions that they saw them with their own eyes. It is also noted that some witnesses only saw the plates when they were covered, although none of the three or eight witnesses are included in this group. The website notes that most of the witnesses left the Church, but does not address the issue of why not a single one of these witnesses exposed the alleged scam.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm) MormonThink concludes that Joseph likely didn't have actually have a vision, noting that "one conclusion at which readers could arrive is that Joseph Smith did not see anything at all. More than likely, he culled from the experiences of others, Charles Finney specifically, editing and reshaping them to form his own First Vision."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Polygamy"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm) The website concludes that Sunday School lesson manuals, priesthood manuals, seminary books, etc "almost never" mention Joseph's polygamy, despite the fact that some actually did mention it. MormonThink concludes that we should believe that Oliver Cowdery's claim that Joseph had an affair should be given credence because Oliver was also a Book of Mormon witness. It is also concluded that Joseph wrote a "love letter" to one of his young plural wives and invited her and both of her parents to his single-room hideout for a tryst.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm) The critics assert that even though the Church has refuted explanations for the priesthood ban, such as that of blacks not being valiant in the pre-existence, that they are bothered that these explanations are no longer acknowledged. MormonThink asserts that President Kimball did not actually receive a revelation ending the priesthood ban, despite his clear statement that he did. The critics state that prophets should be "forward thinkers." MormonThink, therefore, takes the position that the fact that prophets are influenced by the society and culture that they live in indicates that they cannot actually be prophets.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm) The critics assert that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. They cite the incompatibility of scientific facts with the idea of a global flood, the earth being created over a period of 7000 years, and the idea that Adam and Eve could not have been the first people on the earth. The website asserts that if believers disagree with these fundamentalist ideas, that they must be at odds with the Church.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Translation"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm) Joseph reportedly made a false identification about the language and contents of a Greek Psalter (book of psalms written in Greek). The website claims that this action speaks to whether Joseph was a prophet and whether he was capable of translation. Curiously, it is also claimed that no "church" sources or websites discuss this matter, although they cite the Church-sponsored Maxwell Institute and Hugh Nibley. MormonThink even states that, despite the title of their web page, that the Greek Psalter incident "wasn't really a translation," but proceeds anyway to conclude that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Temple"

Summary: MormonThink originally removed this page containing detailed information about the temple, not because it was offensive to Latter-day Saints, but only because it was driving ex-Mormons' believing spouses away from examining their critical website. The new managing editor added the temple material back to the site "by popular demand," then removed it again when threatened with discipline. FAIR responds to a number of issues raised which are not related to the explicit temple content that the site sometimes hosts.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm) MormonThink concludes that lying is "standard operating procedure for Church leaders" from Joseph Smith's time to the present, and that pretty much every thing that the Church does is somehow related to deception (this is a standard position taken by many ex-Mormons after their disaffection with the Church).

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm) The critics conclude that the Catholic definition of offerings is somehow supposed to affect the Mormon definition of tithing, and that the requirement by the Church for members to pay tithing and offerings is a "guilt trip." MormonThink also claims that the Church should divest itself of any profit-making businesses, and that any profit from those businesses should be given to the poor, concluding that the Church is simply a corporation that does not provide sufficient return-on-investment to its members. Finally, the critics conclude that the Church spends little on humanitarian aid, and that members ought to send their contributions elsewhere.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Running with the Plates"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm) In one of the rare instances where MormonThink agrees with the Church, the site concludes that the plates didn't weigh 200 pounds as some critics claim based upon a calculation of the dimensions as a solid block of gold, but that instead that they weighed 40 to 60 pounds, just as the witnesses stated that they did. However, MormonThink also concludes that Joseph could not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child (this despite Joseph's physical health demonstrated by his vaunted "stick-pulling" abilities), and that his story of running with the plates is a "tall tale."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/jst.htm) MormonThink concludes that Joseph Smith's statement about the Book of Mormon being the "most correct book" means that there should be no mistakes in the text, despite the fact that the Book of Mormon title page (written by Mormon) itself states that any mistakes contained therein are the mistakes of men. The website also claims that the JST footnotes in the LDS Bible are supposed to represent "correctly translated passages," yet acknowledges that Joseph was making "inspired" revisions rather than translating an ancient text. MormonThink concludes that translators who "go back to the original sources" have not "confirmed any of Joseph Smith's inspired version passages," and that the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible needs to be added to the "Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri, the Anthon Manuscript, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s Book of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the Greek Psalter" as demonstrations that Joseph lacked the ability to translate anything.

MormonThink Table of Contents

Summary: Correlation of MormonThink's Table of Contents with FAIR Wiki responses

== Notes ==

  1. [note] Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board Recovery from Mormonism, Feb. 21, 2012
  2. [note] Comment posted by MormonThink's founding editor on thread "I am the webmaster of MormonThink.com AMA", ex-Mormon reddit, Jan. 2012
  3. [note] Comment by former MormonThink managing editor David Twede, immediately after emailing his resignation letter to the Church during the open mike session at the Exmormon Foundation 2012 Conference, October 19, 2012.
  4. [note] Former MormonThink managing editor in a letter to his Stake President prior to his resignation in order to avoid Church discipline. Posted as "MormonThink Founder Resignation" on mormonthink.com
  5. [note] David Twede, statement during open mike session, Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference, Salt Lake City, October 19, 2012.
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