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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede/Posing as a questioning member online: Difference between revisions
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*'''September 9, 2012: Twede posts the first entry on his blog'''
*'''September 9, 2012: Twede posts the first entry on his blog'''
*'''September 10, 2012: "starlight012" returns to lds.net to post a link to Twede's blog'''—"starlight012" said, "I can't remember if this is the forum where I posted about the guy posing as an active member to run an anti-mormon site. Well, now he's attending church again. [Direct link deleted - Mods.] And writing about it. I understand we can't stop it, but, he's not being straight about his intent." {{ref|starlight1d}}
*'''September 10, 2012: "starlight012" returns to lds.net to post a link to Twede's blog'''—"starlight012" said, "I can't remember if this is the forum where I posted about the guy posing as an active member to run an anti-mormon site. Well, now he's attending church again. [Direct link deleted - Mods.] And writing about it. I understand we can't stop it, but, he's not being straight about his intent." {{ref|starlight1d}}
*'''September 10-18, 2012: "starlight012" on lds.net sends private messages to FAIR regarding the "bad member"'''—"starlight012" said, "You're welcome. What will you be able to do about this except to report about it at FAIR? Can this man get reported to his bishop? If he's using his active membership to promote anti-mormonism, his bishop might not take kindly to it"....."I know him. That's why I posted the first time a few weeks ago. I know the photo on his profile at the mormonthink site and enough of his history (living in Ann Arbor, etc) that I am sure. His name is David Twede. I don't know what ward he's in, but he mentions Florida. Thanks!" Whoever "starlight012" is, they are posting from Florida, and are portraying themselves as NOT being in Florida.
*'''September 10-18, 2012: "starlight012" on lds.net sends private messages to FAIR regarding the "bad member"'''—"starlight012" said, "You're welcome. What will you be able to do about this except to report about it at FAIR? Can this man get reported to his bishop? If he's using his active membership to promote anti-mormonism, his bishop might not take kindly to it"....."I know him. That's why I posted the first time a few weeks ago. I know the photo on his profile at the mormonthink site and enough of his history (living in Ann Arbor, etc) that I am sure. His name is David Twede. I don't know what ward he's in, but he mentions Florida. Thanks!" Whoever "starlight012" is, they are posting from Florida, and are portraying themself as NOT being in Florida.
*'''September 20, 2012: David Twede, under his real name, tells Postmormon.org of his attempt to post a message on lds.net was deleted'''—Twede states, "I have simultaneously posted to MormonDiscussions, RfM, StayLDS, Postmormon and LDS.NET forums, for completeness.  However, LDSNET took it down immediately." {{ea}}{{ref|twede.postmo.1}} Twede did not provide the reason why his post was deleted from lds.net, and did not mention that the new account that he had created there was immediately banned.
*'''September 20, 2012: David Twede, under his real name, tells Postmormon.org of his attempt to post a message on lds.net was deleted'''—Twede states, "I have simultaneously posted to MormonDiscussions, RfM, StayLDS, Postmormon and LDS.NET forums, for completeness.  However, LDSNET took it down immediately." {{ea}}{{ref|twede.postmo.1}} Twede did not provide the reason why his post was deleted from lds.net, and did not mention that the new account that he had created there was immediately banned.
*'''September 21, 2012: Twede tells "The Daily Beast" that someone from FAIR contacted his local ecclesiastical authorities'''—According to Jamie Reno in "The Daily Beast,"Twede asked church leaders how they came up with his name so fast after posting the articles. They wouldn't tell him, but he says he’s since been told by a church insider that a contributor to the pro-Mormon Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research, many of whose members are professors at Brigham Young University, alerted church officials in Salt Lake City, who apparently informed his local ecclesiastical leaders." {{ea}}{{ref|reno1}} In an interview with the ''New York Times'', FAIR President Scott Gordon was asked about this. Gordon responded, "I forwarded the links of that public blog to some of my friends. The New York Times reporter who called said my email was forwarded to Twede’s stake president. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not. I did not speak with any of his local leaders, nor did I send an email to them. I told the reporter it was more likely one of his local ward members had read his public blog and told the stake president, but she insisted I was the source as she heard that from David Twede himself."{{ref|gordon1}} Scott Gordon's email contained the following introduction: "David Twede from Orlando Florida has become the new editor of Mormon Think, so he is going back to church just to say he is active." This was followed by a link to a thread on Recovery from Mormonism (Posted by Twede as "mormonthinker," on September 06, 2012 08:42AM), then a link to Twede's first blog entry and a reference to MormonThink's "Who are we?" page. Finally, a text copy of the "David Twede" post from "starlight012."
*'''September 21, 2012: Twede tells "The Daily Beast" that someone from FAIR contacted his local ecclesiastical authorities'''—According to Jamie Reno in "The Daily Beast,"Twede asked church leaders how they came up with his name so fast after posting the articles. They wouldn't tell him, but he says he’s since been told by a church insider that a contributor to the pro-Mormon Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research, many of whose members are professors at Brigham Young University, alerted church officials in Salt Lake City, who apparently informed his local ecclesiastical leaders." {{ea}}{{ref|reno1}} In an interview with the ''New York Times'', FAIR President Scott Gordon was asked about this. Gordon responded, "I forwarded the links of that public blog to some of my friends. The New York Times reporter who called said my email was forwarded to Twede’s stake president. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not. I did not speak with any of his local leaders, nor did I send an email to them. I told the reporter it was more likely one of his local ward members had read his public blog and told the stake president, but she insisted I was the source as she heard that from David Twede himself."{{ref|gordon1}} Scott Gordon's email contained the following introduction: "David Twede from Orlando Florida has become the new editor of Mormon Think, so he is going back to church just to say he is active." This was followed by a link to a thread on Recovery from Mormonism (Posted by Twede as "mormonthinker," on September 06, 2012 08:42AM), then a link to Twede's first blog entry and a reference to MormonThink's "Who are we?" page. Finally, a text copy of the "David Twede" post from "starlight012."  
*'''September 24, 2012: lds.net moderators ban Twede's accounts after identifying him as "starlight012"'''—A moderator at LDS.net posted, "The person who started this IS the person who writes the blog, whose deception here will tell you all you need to know about his sense of ethics." {{ref|eowyn1}} The reason for the ban was that it was discovered that the new account that Twede created under his own name at "lds.net" used the same IP address as the account created by "starlight012" - the person who originally reported that a "bad member" was running MormonThink.
*'''September 24, 2012: lds.net moderators ban Twede's accounts after identifying him as "starlight012"'''—A moderator at LDS.net posted, "The person who started this IS the person who writes the blog, whose deception here will tell you all you need to know about his sense of ethics." {{ref|eowyn1}} The reason for the ban was that it was discovered that the new account that Twede created under his own name at "lds.net" used the same IP address as the account created by "starlight012" - the person who originally reported that a "bad member" was running MormonThink.
*'''October 3-4, 2012: Twede is asked on the MormonDiscussion message board whether or not he is "starlight012"'''—Twede responded, "No, these are silly accusations. But the information there is interesting. Either a family member outed me or they're making excuses." {{ref|twede.mdb.oct.3.2012}} Various posters responded with questions, but Twede never reappeared on the thread. On October 4, 2012, MormonThink's founding editor appeared to explain Twede's absence, "You have no idea of the number of requests he continues to get bombarded with by those with questions, reporters who want to do follow-up stories, endless emails, etc....I doubt he has even looked at this thread since he last responded so you can't blame him or anyone else that has a busy life for not responding to every inquiry on every thread on every board where people ask him questions. {{ref|spongebob.nov1}}
*'''October 3-4, 2012: Twede is asked on the MormonDiscussion message board whether or not he is "starlight012"'''—Twede responded, "No, these are silly accusations. But the information there is interesting. Either a family member outed me or they're making excuses." {{ref|twede.mdb.oct.3.2012}} Various posters responded with questions, but Twede never reappeared on the thread. On October 4, 2012, MormonThink's founding editor appeared to explain Twede's absence, "You have no idea of the number of requests he continues to get bombarded with by those with questions, reporters who want to do follow-up stories, endless emails, etc....I doubt he has even looked at this thread since he last responded so you can't blame him or anyone else that has a busy life for not responding to every inquiry on every thread on every board where people ask him questions. {{ref|spongebob.nov1}}

Revision as of 10:39, 26 October 2012



A FAIR Analysis of:
MormonThink
A work by author: David Twede

Twede's history of posing as a questioning member online since 2009

Posing as a questioning member (which I am, just not active), I asked a question at FAIR's page. A Moap emailed me--someone who works with Danny Boy. This game is a bit different than the one you can play with the kindergarten missionaries at Mormon.org.....Posing as a fully active Mo is the only real gray area. I've resolved it for myself, but always wondered how Moaps handle it. Questioning allows me to see this....I felt that a little subterfuge would allow the experiment to run its course better than direct discussion as an exmo. Perhaps that is not appropriate, perhaps it is.
David Twede posting as "Jesus Smith" on Postmormon.org, February 1, 2012.
∗       ∗       ∗

Timeline

  • October 2009: Twede joins Postmormon.org as "Jesus Smith."—Twede publicly linked his "Jesus Smith" account on Postmormon.org to his real name on September 22, 2010, when he claimed ownership of David Twede's photographs. [1]
  • August 2010: Twede poses as questioning member "cryophil" in communication with FAIR—On August 30, 2010, Twede sent a message to FAIR posing as a questioning Church member. He sent his message to FAIR using the identifier "cryophil". He wrote, "Hi, life member of LDS church. I am concernced about claims by anti-mormons saying that there is evidence suggesting that a lot of human sacrifice happened in mesoamerica during the period of great peace and Christ centered society of 4 Nephi... [2]
  • January 2011: "Jesus Smith" tells "Postmormon.org" that he is posing as questioning member "cryophil" on the Mormon Apologetic Discussion Board (now MormonDialogue)—(Note, the references to the "book of moron" and "profits" are not typographical errors—they are simply common derogatory terms used by ex-Mormons on message boards when they talk of "The Book of Mormon" and "prophets.") "Jesus Smith" said, "Ok, over at MADB the question was asked about what archaeology supporting the book of moron exists....Yes, the Moaps have made serious compromises to get to where they are: forcing the BoM to fit science. They argue that traditional interpretations were just that all along--including Joe Smith's take on the BoM. He and all profits are not enlightened like the Moaps....BTW, I am cryophil. But keep that a secret please.  ;-) If any of you can add to the MADB discussion, my alter ego would appreciate the assistance. I've posted several more times today... (emphasis added) [3]
  • February 2011: "Jesus Smith" talks about his interaction with FAIR with his friends on "Postmormon.org" and crossposts to "Recovery from Mormonism"—(Note that the term "moap" is a contraction of "Mormon apologist," and the term "Danny Boy" is a diminutive reference to Daniel C. Peterson.) "Jesus Smith" comments on Postmormon.org and RFM, "So I am sitting in my recliner, smoking a stogie, enjoying a snifter of scotch while I converse cozily with one of the elite FAIR moaps. I'll keep his name out of it for now. Here's how it started. Posing as a questioning member (which I am, just not active), I asked a question at FAIR's page. A Moap emailed me--someone who works with Danny Boy. This game is a bit different than the one you can play with the kindergarten missionaries at Mormon.org. Many of you know I have angst over 4 Nephi. The part where this society from heaven on earth has peace for almost 200 years? My question started out: 'I am concerned about claims by anti-mormons saying that there is evidence suggesting that a lot of human sacrifice happened in mesoamerica during the period of great peace and Christ centered society of 4 Nephi...[4] When several posters questioned his methods, "Jesus Smith" goes on to state, "Truth is, I am not officially resigned, and this is an issue for me--one of my biggest. Posing as a fully active Mo is the only real gray area. I've resolved it for myself, but always wondered how Moaps handle it. Questioning allows me to see this....I felt that a little subterfuge would allow the experiment to run its course better than direct discussion as an exmo. Perhaps that is not appropriate, perhaps it is." [5]
  • October 2011: "cryophil" tells MormonDialogue that this is his "last ditch effort" to believe and that he "may have to accept the Book of Mormon as fictional"— "I'm asking as a final, last ditch effort to see if there are answers that make sense. I doubt it now. ...I get the impression that some truths are not very useful, so goes the cherry picking. [6] We are going round and round here. I have my questions these days. I am not sure they can be answered. It may be that I will have to accept the BoM as fictional moral teachings. That's a lot easier than to accept science is just wrong, and FAIR's interpretations are more scholarly." [7]
  • April 2012: Twede creates the account "cryophil" on lds.net
  • May 12, 2012: "Jesus Smith" tells Postmormon.org that he is posing as questioning member "cryophil" on lds.net—Ok. I admit, I inflated the % up just to not appear anti Mormon. (yes, i'm the shill cryophil. shh.)[8]
  • May 9 and 10th, "Jesus Smith/cryophil" updates the ex-Mormon message board Postmormon.org regarding his efforts on lds.net.—"Jesus Smith" says, "Like many of you, I find the concept of religious faith absurd. It is a mind-trick to place it at the top, in first position, so that those who are racing to their belief will jump over it without much thought.....This topic is giving LDS.NET mormons a run for their money. Some of our posts have made their way into the discussion. haha. see why-faith-1st-principle" [9] The link is to a post on lds.net made by "cryophil" on May 7, 2012. On May 10, 2012, "cryophil" talks of "the faith" that he has "placed in Mormonism" on lds.net, "My other question then is, what happens when the evidence found by science contradicts the faith I've placed in Mormonism?" [10] The next day, "Jesus Smith" reported back to the ex-Mormon board that he was "[c]ontinuing to hammer them with logic." [11] The "cryophil" account on lds.net was ultimately banned.
  • August 10, 2012: MormonThink publicly announces that David Twede is its new managing editor
  • August 23 and 24, 2012: Someone at Twede's IP address in Florida creates account "starlight012" and reports a "bad member" running MormonThink—"Hi, I am new to the forum. I want help. There is a member who is posting anti-mormon information and claiming to be a member in good standing. I know him, his name and want his leaders to encourage him to stop. What do I do? it's an article at that mormon think website."[12]...."I think it's an anti-mormon site. I know the guy that wrote that and he's claiming to be a good member, but I know he's not." [13]...."Now I am getting confused. Some of you have said that they lie a lot at MT, pretending to be active members. That's also what I know of David, the current editor there. However, some of you have said that the material is correct and while presented in a way to convey a message that pushes apart, it is not untrue. Some have said that it is very misleading, but that it has the facts correct. What is going on here? The new editor that I know is there because the previous one left the church. He is still a member, but I wouldn't call him a good member. However, I have read the article and now see that all of the points come directly from scriptures or standard books in the church. I think it is meant to divide people, using the facts. If this gets out to non-members, and if they think a good member is writing this, that is going to look bad. Can't we get it shut down or have the editor reprimanded by church leaders for portraying himself that way?" [14]
  • September 9, 2012: Twede posts the first entry on his blog
  • September 10, 2012: "starlight012" returns to lds.net to post a link to Twede's blog—"starlight012" said, "I can't remember if this is the forum where I posted about the guy posing as an active member to run an anti-mormon site. Well, now he's attending church again. [Direct link deleted - Mods.] And writing about it. I understand we can't stop it, but, he's not being straight about his intent." [15]
  • September 10-18, 2012: "starlight012" on lds.net sends private messages to FAIR regarding the "bad member"—"starlight012" said, "You're welcome. What will you be able to do about this except to report about it at FAIR? Can this man get reported to his bishop? If he's using his active membership to promote anti-mormonism, his bishop might not take kindly to it"....."I know him. That's why I posted the first time a few weeks ago. I know the photo on his profile at the mormonthink site and enough of his history (living in Ann Arbor, etc) that I am sure. His name is David Twede. I don't know what ward he's in, but he mentions Florida. Thanks!" Whoever "starlight012" is, they are posting from Florida, and are portraying themself as NOT being in Florida.
  • September 20, 2012: David Twede, under his real name, tells Postmormon.org of his attempt to post a message on lds.net was deleted—Twede states, "I have simultaneously posted to MormonDiscussions, RfM, StayLDS, Postmormon and LDS.NET forums, for completeness. However, LDSNET took it down immediately." (emphasis added)[16] Twede did not provide the reason why his post was deleted from lds.net, and did not mention that the new account that he had created there was immediately banned.
  • September 21, 2012: Twede tells "The Daily Beast" that someone from FAIR contacted his local ecclesiastical authorities—According to Jamie Reno in "The Daily Beast,"Twede asked church leaders how they came up with his name so fast after posting the articles. They wouldn't tell him, but he says he’s since been told by a church insider that a contributor to the pro-Mormon Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research, many of whose members are professors at Brigham Young University, alerted church officials in Salt Lake City, who apparently informed his local ecclesiastical leaders." (emphasis added)[17] In an interview with the New York Times, FAIR President Scott Gordon was asked about this. Gordon responded, "I forwarded the links of that public blog to some of my friends. The New York Times reporter who called said my email was forwarded to Twede’s stake president. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not. I did not speak with any of his local leaders, nor did I send an email to them. I told the reporter it was more likely one of his local ward members had read his public blog and told the stake president, but she insisted I was the source as she heard that from David Twede himself."[18] Scott Gordon's email contained the following introduction: "David Twede from Orlando Florida has become the new editor of Mormon Think, so he is going back to church just to say he is active." This was followed by a link to a thread on Recovery from Mormonism (Posted by Twede as "mormonthinker," on September 06, 2012 08:42AM), then a link to Twede's first blog entry and a reference to MormonThink's "Who are we?" page. Finally, a text copy of the "David Twede" post from "starlight012."
  • September 24, 2012: lds.net moderators ban Twede's accounts after identifying him as "starlight012"—A moderator at LDS.net posted, "The person who started this IS the person who writes the blog, whose deception here will tell you all you need to know about his sense of ethics." [19] The reason for the ban was that it was discovered that the new account that Twede created under his own name at "lds.net" used the same IP address as the account created by "starlight012" - the person who originally reported that a "bad member" was running MormonThink.
  • October 3-4, 2012: Twede is asked on the MormonDiscussion message board whether or not he is "starlight012"—Twede responded, "No, these are silly accusations. But the information there is interesting. Either a family member outed me or they're making excuses." [20] Various posters responded with questions, but Twede never reappeared on the thread. On October 4, 2012, MormonThink's founding editor appeared to explain Twede's absence, "You have no idea of the number of requests he continues to get bombarded with by those with questions, reporters who want to do follow-up stories, endless emails, etc....I doubt he has even looked at this thread since he last responded so you can't blame him or anyone else that has a busy life for not responding to every inquiry on every thread on every board where people ask him questions. [21]
  • October 20 and 23, 2012: Twede is asked by Postmormon.org moderator who "starlight012"—When a moderator at Postmormon.org asked Twede if he had addressed the claim that he might have "set the entire chain of events in motion himself through a sockpuppet at LDS, Inc.,"[22] Twede first responded by indicating that this was a "smear" tactic by FAIR President Scott Gordon. Twede stated, "I didn't know how to address something I didn't understand (at first). I have since (some of the understanding just came over the weekend) received nearly unequivocable evidence that a family member contacted Scott Gordon. Because they share the same last name and other things in common with me, that is likely the source of his confusion about it being me. The evidence is unfortunately is very personal, could get another family member in very hot water. A few people, some at the conference, have heard it directly. There are a few others I will share it with on a personal level if I can trust they never release it or give away the details that can create more problems for us. If Gordon insists on continuing his smear, but it protects family, I can live with that." [23] Twede deleted this post several hours after it appeared. Followup questions regarding starlight012 and what exactly Scott Gordon was saying that constituted a "smear" caused Twede to threaten to withdraw MormonThink support for Postmormon.org, and specifically for the moderator who dared to ask him the questions. [24] After withdrawing the threat, Twede's final response was, "Now...I will state again one last time: These are silly accusations. This is my last post." [25] We refer anyone interested in any of the additional comments to the link to Postmormon.org contained in the endnote. [26]

== Notes == NOTE: FAIR's normal policy is to not link directly to websites which are critical of the Church. In this instance, however, we have suspended that restriction. All of the links below are active, including those that link to ex-Mormon message forums Postmormon.org and MormonDiscussions.com.

  1. [note] "Jesus Smith," ""OT Photo Thread," posted on Postmormon.org, September 22, 2012. off-site
  2. [note] Message sent to FAIR's "Ask the Apologist" service on August 30, 2012 by "Phil C." from email address "cryophil". Located in FAIR's archives.
  3. [note] "Jesus Smith," "Cozing up with FAIR (stage 1)", posted on Postmormon.org, February 1, 2012. off-site
  4. [note] "Jesus Smith," "Cozing up with FAIR (stage 1)", posted on Postmormon.org, February 1, 2012. off-site
  5. [note] "Jesus Smith," "One of the top LDS “experts” on Mesoamerica promotes cherry picking", posted on Postmormon.org, October 26, 2011. off-site
  6. [note] "cryophil", "Book Of Mormon Archaeology", posted on MormonDialogue, October 26, 2011. off-site
  7. [note] "cryophil," "Book Of Mormon Archaeology", posted on MormonDialogue, October 26, 2011. off-site
  8. [note] "Jesus Smith," "Oh boy…Continuing to hammer them with logic ....", posted on Postmormon.org, May 12, 2012. off-site
  9. [note] "Jesus Smith," "The hypocrisy of the “Faith” argument in Alma 32", posted on Postmormon.org, May 9, 2012. off-site
  10. [note] "cryophil," "Why is Faith the 1st principle?", posted on lds.net, May 10, 2012. off-site
  11. [note] "Jesus Smith," "Oh boy…Continuing to hammer them with logic ....," posted on Postmormon.org, May 11, 2012. off-site
  12. [note] "starlight012," "Report bad member?", posted on lds.net, August 23, 2012. ("starlight012" account linked to David Twede by lds.net moderators and subsequently banned as having originated from the same IP address) off-site
  13. [note] Posted by "starlight012" on lds.net, August 24, 2012. off-site
  14. [note] Posted by "starlight012" on lds.net, August 24, 2012. off-site
  15. [note] Posted by "starlight012" on lds.net, September 10, 2012. off-site
  16. [note] David Twede, "MormonThink events," posted on Postmormon.org, September 20, 2012. off-site
  17. [note] Jamie Reno, "Mormons Want to Excommunicate Romney Critic," The Daily Beast, Sept. 21, 2012 off-site
  18. [note] Scott Gordon, "Message from the President," The FAIR Journal, September 2012 off-site
  19. [note] Message posted by moderator "Eowyn" on "lds.net," September 24, 2012) off-site
  20. [note] David Twede, "Question for David Twede", posted on MormonDiscussions, October 3, 2012. off-site
  21. [note] Posted by "LDS Truthseeker" on MormonDiscussions, October 4, 2012. off-site
  22. [note] Posted by Brad (ZeeZrom) Moderator, Postmormon.org, October 20, 2012. off-site
  23. [note] Posted by David Twede on Postmormon.org, October 23, 2012. This post was deleted several hours later and replaced by the word (snip). off-site
  24. [note] Posted by Brad (ZeeZrom) Moderator on Postmormon.org, October 23, 2012. off-site
  25. [note] Posted by David Twede on Postmormon.org, October 25, 2012.
  26. [note] Posted by David Twede on Postmormon.org, October 25, 2012.
  27. [note] Comments by various posters made on Postmormon.org, October 25, 2012. off-site
Retrieved from "http://104.237.154.152/answers/index.php?title=Criticism_of_Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media_efforts_by_MormonThink_editor_David_Twede/Posing_as_a_questioning_member_online&oldid=98755"