Array

Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink: Difference between revisions
Line 49: Line 49:
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 1)
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 1)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)
|summary=The critics take the position that if an animal does not appear in a picture on a wall in a ruin, then it must never have existed, That FAIR avoids mentioning certain Book of Mormon verses "at all costs," despite quoting verses that say something substantially similar...and despite the verses being avoided actually appearing in the FAIR Wiki article on the subject. It is also claimed that apologists must be "embarrassed" when they correct mistakes based upon new data, and that apologists apparently wish to redefine animals as different animals, despite the fact that "loan-shifting" is mentioned only as a possibility rather than as a fact.
|summary=([http://en.fairmormon.org/No_links_to_critical_websites  http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm)] The critics take the position that if an animal does not appear in a picture on a wall in a ruin, then it must never have existed, That FAIR avoids mentioning certain Book of Mormon verses "at all costs," despite quoting verses that say something substantially similar...and despite the verses being avoided actually appearing in the FAIR Wiki article on the subject. It is also claimed that apologists must be "embarrassed" when they correct mistakes based upon new data, and that apologists apparently wish to redefine animals as different animals, despite the fact that "loan-shifting" is mentioned only as a possibility rather than as a fact.
}}
}}
{{SummaryItem
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 2)
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 2)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)
|summary=The critics take the position that it should be "relatively easy" to locate the first temple built by Nephi's group of 30 to 40 people among the ruins of Mesoamerica (which have only been 5% explored due to the difficulty of uncovering ruins in the jungle). This also despite the fact that Mesoamericans tended to build their new temples on top of their older ones. The also assert that the Nephites and Lamanites should have used the wheel, despite the difficulty of the terrain. It is also asserted that none of the numerous archaeological remains located in the Americas could possibly be related to the Book of Mormon, including those 95% yet uncovered in Mesoamerica. Finally, the critics conclude that despite solid evidence and correlation between the Book of Mormon narrative and the location in the Old World called NHM, that it simply doesn't count as evidence for the Book of Mormon.
|summary=([http://en.fairmormon.org/No_links_to_critical_websites  http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm)] The critics take the position that it should be "relatively easy" to locate the first temple built by Nephi's group of 30 to 40 people among the ruins of Mesoamerica (which have only been 5% explored due to the difficulty of uncovering ruins in the jungle). This also despite the fact that Mesoamericans tended to build their new temples on top of their older ones. The also assert that the Nephites and Lamanites should have used the wheel, despite the difficulty of the terrain. It is also asserted that none of the numerous archaeological remains located in the Americas could possibly be related to the Book of Mormon, including those 95% yet uncovered in Mesoamerica. Finally, the critics conclude that despite solid evidence and correlation between the Book of Mormon narrative and the location in the Old World called NHM, that it simply doesn't count as evidence for the Book of Mormon.
}}
}}
{{SummaryItem
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation  
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation  
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"  
|summary=The web page asserts that Moroni's visit would have awakened the rest of the Smith family, and that Church artwork does not accurately show Joseph's siblings asleep in the room during Moroni's visit, except those paintings that actually do show it. It is also asserted that if the Church continues to use artwork that shows Joseph alone in bed during Moroni's visit, that the Church is "not becoming more open and forthright about this issue." It is indicated that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."
|summary=([http://en.fairmormon.org/No_links_to_critical_websites  http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm)] The web page asserts that Moroni's visit would have awakened the rest of the Smith family, and that Church artwork does not accurately show Joseph's siblings asleep in the room during Moroni's visit, except those paintings that actually do show it. It is also asserted that if the Church continues to use artwork that shows Joseph alone in bed during Moroni's visit, that the Church is "not becoming more open and forthright about this issue." It is indicated that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."
}}
}}
{{SummaryItem
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates" ([http://en.fairmormon.org/No_links_to_critical_websites  http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm)]
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"  
|summary=([http://en.fairmormon.org/No_links_to_critical_websites  http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm]) Get with the program: The new data obliterates any old apologetics on the subject. Apologists update their positions based upon the discovery of new data. Continuing to quote old apologetics and calling the new data an apologetic "ploy" is simply a load of nonsense. Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which actually had nothing to do with Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton ''matched'' the explanation given for the character in the GAEL.
|summary=([http://en.fairmormon.org/No_links_to_critical_websites  http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm]) All we have to say is: Get with the program. The new data obliterates any old apologetics on the subject. Apologists update their positions based upon the discovery of new data. Continuing to quote old apologetics and calling the new data an apologetic "ploy" is simply a load of nonsense. Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which actually had nothing to do with Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton ''matched'' the explanation given for the character in the GAEL.
}}
}}
{{SummaryItem
{{SummaryItem
Line 74: Line 74:
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|summary=The website takes the position that the First Vision "wasn't even known by church members until 1842," despite Joseph writing in his 1835 journal that he related the story to a man who happened to be visiting him. It is assumed that local newspapers would have been interested enough in a 14-year-old's claim to have seen God to have published it. They also claim that earlier accounts of Joseph's vision written by Joseph himself are not "official" (whatever that means), and that Joseph's different accounts of the First Vision are "relatively ignored" by the Church, despite an entire web page being devoted to them on lds.org and various mentions in the Ensign, including a statement by Gordon B. Hinckley. The website also repeats a claim that Joseph embellished his vision story in 1838 to bolster his leadership during a time of apostasy, despite the fact that he told the same story to strangers visiting his house three years earlier in 1835.
|summary=([http://en.fairmormon.org/No_links_to_critical_websites  http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm)] The website takes the position that the First Vision "wasn't even known by church members until 1842," despite Joseph writing in his 1835 journal that he related the story to a man who happened to be visiting him. It is assumed that local newspapers would have been interested enough in a 14-year-old's claim to have seen God to have published it. They also claim that earlier accounts of Joseph's vision written by Joseph himself are not "official" (whatever that means), and that Joseph's different accounts of the First Vision are "relatively ignored" by the Church, despite an entire web page being devoted to them on lds.org and various mentions in the Ensign, including a statement by Gordon B. Hinckley. The website also repeats a claim that Joseph embellished his vision story in 1838 to bolster his leadership during a time of apostasy, despite the fact that he told the same story to strangers visiting his house three years earlier in 1835.
}}
}}
{{SummaryItem
{{SummaryItem

Revision as of 13:30, 8 May 2012



A FAIR Analysis of:
MormonThink
A work by author: Anonymous
High Level Summary
Title MormonThink.com
Type Website
Author(s) Anonymous; Webmaster uses the pseudonyms "Truthseeker" and "SpongeBob SquareGarments"
Affiliation "Active" members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Ex-Mormons active on the Recovery from Mormonism message board. Recent indications suggest that the only "active" member is the webmaster.
Accuracy Conclusions drawn are predominantly negative toward the truth claims of the Church.
Temple content NOTE: Extremely detailed temple content is posted on the web site

A FAIR Analysis of the critical website MormonThink

Mormonthink.com is a site produced by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are interested in the historical accuracy of our church and how it is being taught to its members and portrayed in the media.
Statement at the top of the MormonThink website
About 25 Latter-day Saints have contributed substantially to the MormonThink website. The majority of those people are active, church-going members of the LDS Church. We have held positions ranging from Gospel Doctrine teachers, YW Presidents to Bishop. Some of us have written faith-promoting articles that have been published in the Ensign and other church publications.
"Who are we?", MormonThink website.
I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow.
—MormonThink's "active LDS" webmaster, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board Recovery from Mormonism, Feb. 21, 2012
So that is one of the reasons I remain in the church. It gives me greater credibility when I speak about my own religion instead of it being my former religion. We all know as soon as I leave it, I am labeled as someone who left because of morality, tithing or some other issue rather than the historical problems of the church....By subtly mentioning things in meetings I may raise some doubts...
—Comment posted by "active Mormon" MormonThink webmaster on thread 'I am the webmaster of MormonThink.com AMA', ex-Mormon reddit, Jan. 2012
∗       ∗       ∗

The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." The site claims to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they are "active" only in the sense that they still attend Church—they do not accept the Church's truth claims, and they have no interest in strengthening belief. The site includes links to FAIR as a way of demonstrating their "balance." The true motivation behind the site is to persuade members to question their beliefs. The most effective demonstration of this motivation is to read what the site owner himself states on ex-Mormon message boards, as well as testimonials of those who no longer believe in the Church.

==

Sub-articles


== Responses to the content of the website are located in the following sub-articles:

Overview of the MormonThink website

Summary: The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The webmaster of MormonThink posts in several online ex-Mormon message boards under the names "SpongeBob SquareGarments," "mormonthink," and "LDS Truthseeker". The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered in his own words, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that his site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.

Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"

Summary: According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FAIR's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FAIR believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm) The website concludes that at least two Apostles have mentioned the use of the hat in public discourses which appeared in print, and at least one believing LDS defender of the faith has mentioned it on television. This is apparently "astonishing," since if members or investigators knew that Joseph used a stone and a hat instead of two stones in a set of spectacles, and that he didn't need to look directly at the plates instead of viewing a mysterious conversion of reformed Egyptian characters to English words, then they wouldn't want to join the Church. But, the use of the stone isn't that much of a problem, it's really the hat that is the problem.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm) The critics take the position that if an animal does not appear in a picture on a wall in a ruin, then it must never have existed, That FAIR avoids mentioning certain Book of Mormon verses "at all costs," despite quoting verses that say something substantially similar...and despite the verses being avoided actually appearing in the FAIR Wiki article on the subject. It is also claimed that apologists must be "embarrassed" when they correct mistakes based upon new data, and that apologists apparently wish to redefine animals as different animals, despite the fact that "loan-shifting" is mentioned only as a possibility rather than as a fact.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm) The critics take the position that it should be "relatively easy" to locate the first temple built by Nephi's group of 30 to 40 people among the ruins of Mesoamerica (which have only been 5% explored due to the difficulty of uncovering ruins in the jungle). This also despite the fact that Mesoamericans tended to build their new temples on top of their older ones. The also assert that the Nephites and Lamanites should have used the wheel, despite the difficulty of the terrain. It is also asserted that none of the numerous archaeological remains located in the Americas could possibly be related to the Book of Mormon, including those 95% yet uncovered in Mesoamerica. Finally, the critics conclude that despite solid evidence and correlation between the Book of Mormon narrative and the location in the Old World called NHM, that it simply doesn't count as evidence for the Book of Mormon.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm) The web page asserts that Moroni's visit would have awakened the rest of the Smith family, and that Church artwork does not accurately show Joseph's siblings asleep in the room during Moroni's visit, except those paintings that actually do show it. It is also asserted that if the Church continues to use artwork that shows Joseph alone in bed during Moroni's visit, that the Church is "not becoming more open and forthright about this issue." It is indicated that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm) All we have to say is: Get with the program. The new data obliterates any old apologetics on the subject. Apologists update their positions based upon the discovery of new data. Continuing to quote old apologetics and calling the new data an apologetic "ploy" is simply a load of nonsense. Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which actually had nothing to do with Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton matched the explanation given for the character in the GAEL.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Witnesses"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm) The website concludes that the witnesses may have only seen the plates in a vision, despite their repeated assertions that they saw them with their own eyes, and that some witnesses only saw the plates when they were covered, although none of the three or eight witnesses are included in this group. The website notes that most of the witnesses left the Church (which is also clearly taught in Church), but does not comment on why not a single one of these witnessed exposed the alleged scam.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm) The website takes the position that the First Vision "wasn't even known by church members until 1842," despite Joseph writing in his 1835 journal that he related the story to a man who happened to be visiting him. It is assumed that local newspapers would have been interested enough in a 14-year-old's claim to have seen God to have published it. They also claim that earlier accounts of Joseph's vision written by Joseph himself are not "official" (whatever that means), and that Joseph's different accounts of the First Vision are "relatively ignored" by the Church, despite an entire web page being devoted to them on lds.org and various mentions in the Ensign, including a statement by Gordon B. Hinckley. The website also repeats a claim that Joseph embellished his vision story in 1838 to bolster his leadership during a time of apostasy, despite the fact that he told the same story to strangers visiting his house three years earlier in 1835.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Polygamy"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm) The website concludes that Sunday School lesson manuals, priesthood manuals, seminary books, etc "almost never" mention Joseph's polygamy, despite the fact that some actually did mention it. They also claim we should believe that Oliver's claim that Joseph had an affair is true because Oliver was also a Book of Mormon witness. It is also concluded that Joseph wrote a "love letter" to one of his young plural wives and invited her and both of her parents to his single-room hideout for a tryst.

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Translation"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm) Joseph reportedly made a false identification about the language and contents of a Greek Psalter (book of psalms written in Greek). The website claims that this action speaks to whether Joseph was a prophet and whether he was capable of translation. Curiously, it is also claimed that no "church" sources or websites discuss this matter, although they cite the Church-sponsored Maxwell Institute and Hugh Nibley. MormonThink states that this "wasn't really a translation," but concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Running with the Plates"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm) The website concludes that the plates didn't weigh 200 pounds, but instead that they weighed 40 to 60 pounds just as the witnesses stated that they did. The site also concludes that Joseph could not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child (this despite Joseph's physical health demonstrated by his vaunted "stick-pulling" abilities), and that his story of running with the plates is a "tall tale."

A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"

Summary: (http://mormonthink.com/jst.htm) MormonThink concludes that Joseph Smith's statement about the Book of Mormon being the "most correct book" means that there should be no mistakes in the text, despite the fact that the Book of Mormon title page (written by Mormon) itself states that any mistakes contained therein are the mistakes of men. They also claim that the JST footnotes in the LDS Bible are supposed to represent "correctly translated passages," yet acknowledges that Joseph was making "inspired" revisions rather than translating an ancient text. They conclude that translators who "go back to the original sources" have not "confirmed any of Joseph Smith's inspired version passages, and that the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible needs to be added to the "Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri, the Anthon Manuscript, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s Book of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the Greek Psalter" as demonstrations that Joseph lacked the ability to translate anything.

MormonThink Table of Contents

Summary: Correlation of MormonThink's Table of Contents with FAIR Wiki responses
Retrieved from "http://104.237.154.152/answers/index.php?title=Criticism_of_Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink&oldid=95929"