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|claim=However, since Joseph translated some other documents as well, it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations. If it can be proved that Joseph translated other ancient documents correctly, when he would have no knowledge of how to do so, it would go a long way to help validate Joseph's ability as a seer and translator. | |claim=However, since Joseph translated some other documents as well, it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations. If it can be proved that Joseph translated other ancient documents correctly, when he would have no knowledge of how to do so, it would go a long way to help validate Joseph's ability as a seer and translator. | ||
|think= | |think= | ||
* One would first have to ask if Joseph translated them in the same way as scripture. | |||
* For example, Joseph studied Hebrew in the School of the Prophets using conventional scholarly techniques--his translations of Hebrew done in class might, then, only represent his intellectual or scholarly ability at the time, and not a divine ability to translate scripture. | |||
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Revision as of 18:38, 1 May 2012
A FAIR Analysis of: MormonThink A work by author: Anonymous
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A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Translation"
FAIRMORMON'S VIEW OF THE CRITICS' CONCLUSIONS
The positions that this MormonThink article appears to take are the following:
FAIRMORMON'S RESPONSE AND SUPPORTING DATA
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The most notable translation is of course the Book of Mormon. As the angel took back the gold plates from which the BOM was translated, there really is nothing to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM.
FairMormon commentary
- Except, of course, the 500+ page Book of Mormon text itself.
- And, the testimony of three witnesses who heard God declare that the translation was true.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
However, since Joseph translated some other documents as well, it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations. If it can be proved that Joseph translated other ancient documents correctly, when he would have no knowledge of how to do so, it would go a long way to help validate Joseph's ability as a seer and translator.
FairMormon commentary
- One would first have to ask if Joseph translated them in the same way as scripture.
- For example, Joseph studied Hebrew in the School of the Prophets using conventional scholarly techniques--his translations of Hebrew done in class might, then, only represent his intellectual or scholarly ability at the time, and not a divine ability to translate scripture.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Joseph of course translated the Book of Mormon from Reformed Egyptian and he also translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri so he apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it...
FairMormon commentary
- The Nephite authors insisted that their "Reformed Egyptian" had been so altered over 1000 years of separation from the Old World that "none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof" (Mormon 9꞉34).
- Joseph's ability to translate had nothing to do with "knowing a language," but was done (as he always insisted) "by the gift and power of God." He was not a translator in the academic on intellectual sense.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Joseph examined the ancient document and replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Professor Caswall of course knew Joseph was wrong as this was a known Greek Psalter and definitely not Egyptian. Professor Caswall then informed the Prophet that it was but a plain Greek Psalter. Joseph then left the scene.
FairMormon commentary
- This account distorts the facts almost beyond recognition. This is what Caswell wanted people to believe, and MormonThink fell for it, hook, line and sinker. They hope you will too.
- There are two versions of Caswall's story. His first version is more detailed, and the critics usually avoid citing it.
- Caswall changed his story between the two versions.
- In his first version, Caswall claims that he told Joseph and the Mormons what the book was–a copy of the Psalms in Greek. Despite this warning, the bumbling Joseph that Caswall wishes us to see presses blindly on, utterly confident in his ability. The prophet and Mormons are also extraordinarily anxious to purchase the Psalter or borrow it with "the most ample security," but Caswall will not do so. Extraordinary! He has come to Nauvoo, he tells us, with the firm intent of exposing Joseph Smith as a charlatan. In front of a mass of witnesses, Joseph then supposedly makes claims about the contents of a book that Caswall knows to be Greek, and the prophet offers to translate the document. Caswall, however, refuses to let him continue, refuses to loan it, and tries to discourage the Mormons from even thinking about buying it. Why? If Joseph committed himself publicly, in print, on the document's contents, Caswall would have iron-clad proof that Joseph could not translate.
- Joseph walked right into Caswall's trap, and Caswall then goes to great length to spring the prophet from it? His claim does not stand up.
- Caswall also claimed at first to have disguised his identity as a minister (the better to fool Joseph and the Mormons) but the Times and Seasons noted that Caswall had claimed to be an Episcopal minister. Caswall's second account likewise says nothing about him hiding his identity.
- It is not surprising, then, that critics often cite the later, less-detailed version(s) of Caswall's tale, which omit many of the absurdities in Caswall's claim. Critics make his charge look plausible, when the earliest document demonstrates that it is not, and that Caswall (as John Taylor claimed) was not above hiding or altering the facts to suit his polemical purpose.
Quotes to consider
- And, finally, Joseph had studied Greek--he would have known Greek when he saw it:
- On 20 November 1835, Oliver Cowdery returned from New York and brought Joseph a Hebrew and Greek lexicon.[1]
- On 23 December 1835, Joseph wrote that he was "at home studying the greek Language..."[2]
Additional information
- Joseph Smith and the Greek psalter—Critics claim that an ancient text of Greek psalms (a "psalter") was misidentified by Joseph Smith as a containing "reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphics. (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Henry Caswall's experience with Joseph Smith at Nauvoo on 18-19 April 1842 expresses the frustration of an increasing number of LDS students with Joseph's ability to translate ancient documents.
FairMormon commentary
- No, it doesn't. Caswall was a minister from another denomination who set out to trap Joseph (he tells us).
- Then, when the chance comes to launch the trap, Caswall backpedals and won't let Joseph buy or borrow the book he claims he can translate.
- The Mormons were on to Caswall--it seems unlikely Joseph fell into his trap at all, but that didn't stop Caswall from writing about it later.
Quotes to consider
John Taylor said of Caswall's visit:
- Concerning Mr. Caswall, I was at Nauvoo during the time of his visit. He came for the purpose of looking for evil. He was a wicked man, and associated with reprobates, mobocrats, and murderers. It is, I suppose, true that he was reverend gentleman; but it has been no uncommon thing with us to witness associations of this kind, nor for reverend gentlemen; so called, to be found leading on mobs to deeds of plunder and death. I saw Mr. Caswall in the printing office at Nauvoo; he had with him an old manuscript, and professed to be anxious to know what it was. I looked at it, and told him that I believed it was a Greek manuscript. In his book, he states that it was a Greek Psalter; but that none of the Mormons told him what it was. Herein is a falsehood, for I told him. Yet these are the men and books that we are to have our evidence from.
- So, Caswell may well illustrate what MormonThink is doing, but it's not an image they'd probably want to be associated with.
Additional information
- Joseph Smith and the Greek psalter—Critics claim that an ancient text of Greek psalms (a "psalter") was misidentified by Joseph Smith as a containing "reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphics. (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
We regret that we could not find this issue discussed in any church publication or web site. However we found several responses from LDS apologists and LDS leaders which we cite below. Per the Neal A. Maxwell Institute...
FairMormon commentary
- The Neal A. Maxwell institute is sponsored by the Church.
- The following works published by Church presses all deal with the issue. MormonThink does not know the data well, or chooses to ignore it:
- Craig L. Foster, "Henry Caswall: Anti-Mormon Extraordinaire," Brigham Young University Studies 35 no. 4 (1995-96), 144–159.
- John A. Widtsoe, Joseph Smith: Seeker after Truth, Prophet of God (Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1951), 91ff. GL direct link
- Hugh W. Nibley, Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass: The Art of Telling Tales About Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (Vol. 11 of the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley), edited by David J. Whittaker, (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Company ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1991), 304-401. ISBN 0875795161. GL direct link
- Hugh W. Nibley, Since Cumorah, 2nd edition, (Vol. 7 of the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley), edited by John W. Welch, (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Company ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1988). ISBN 0875791395.
- Mark Ashurst-McGee, "A One-sided View of Mormon Origins (Review of: An Insider's View of Mormon Origins)," FARMS Review 15/2 (2003): 309–364. off-site
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Critic's response. We support professor Caswall's response to Joseph's error: "Whether he spoke as a prophet or as a mere man, he has committed himself, for he has said what is not true. If he spoke as a prophet, therefore, he is a false prophet. If he spoke as a mere man, he cannot be trusted, for he spoke positively and like an oracle respecting that which he knew nothing." When Joseph speaks and leads others to assume he is speaking as a prophet then he needs to be accountable for what he says. It's very convenient to say Joseph speaks as a man whenever he's proved wrong and as a prophet whenever his statements can't be proven right or wrong or haven't been proven one way or the other yet.
FairMormon commentary
- What evidence is there that Joseph said anything problematic about the Psalter?
- Caswall had the chance (in his version telling of the story) for Joseph to take the Psalter and produce a translation. Caswall steadfastly refused, even when (in his telling) the gullible enthusiastic Mormons promised him money to buy it or act as security.
- Caswell has Joseph right where he wants him--and then let's him get away and we're left with just his word.
- Caswell probably realized how implausible this looked, since he changed his story the next time he published it.
Additional information
- Joseph Smith and the Greek psalter—Critics claim that an ancient text of Greek psalms (a "psalter") was misidentified by Joseph Smith as a containing "reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphics. (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates. He saw an ancient document, one that he assumed no one in the world could translate and he said that he could translate it and he said what it was. And he was just as wrong with the Greek Psalter as he was with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook plates.
FairMormon commentary
- MormonThink is again assuming that Caswell's account is accurate.
- We repeat: if Joseph truly said this, then why didn't Caswell give him the book or sell him the book so Joseph could do what Caswell claimed Joseph wanted to do?
- The story doesn't hang together. Think about it.
FairMormon commentary
- MormonThink does not examine or address the evidence at all--they just assume that Caswell must have told the truth.
- Here's the problem, though: Caswell left two versions of the story, and they don't match. So, he was not telling the truth in at least part of a least one statement.
- And, so they admit that Caswell exaggerated and embellished (i.e., he lied) about some things, why ought we to trust him about the thing that matters?
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
If this was the only translation issue that was damaging to the prophet then we would dismiss it as it wasn't really a translation even if Joseph was in error as to the identification of the document.
However given the more substantial translation problems identified by critics with the Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, the Greek Psalter incident needs to be scrutinized as well to look for any evidence that Joseph was really an accurate seer and translator.
FairMormon commentary
- So if it was the only event, we'd ignore it as not providing useful data.
- But because there are other translation events, we won't ignore it, because it provides useful data.
- Right.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
If Joseph really translated the Book of Mormon from reformed Egyptian characters and if he really translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri then he would know what Egyptian characters are and what they meant.
FairMormon commentary
- Why? The Reformed Egyptian was altered and not like any other written language, according to Moroni (Mormon 9꞉34).
- Why would Joseph necessarily know what Egyptian characters are and what they meant? He was not an academic translator, studying the text and symbols and developing meaning--he was receiving translation by revelation.
- No one argues that Joseph worked like a regular translator when he produced scripture such as the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, or the revision of the Bible (JST). MormonThink is clouding the issue.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Although the Greek Psalter incident is the translation effort with the least amount of significance, it further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer. It's hard for many of us that have analyzed the accounts of all of the ancient writings that Joseph claimed to have translated to accept the fact that all of Joseph's translations that can be proven as accurate have all been proven to be incorrect. If nothing else, it was another opportunity for Joseph to prove himself to be a seer but he did not.
FairMormon commentary
- How did Joseph "not prove himself"?
- Caswell claimed that Joseph identified the Greek letters as something else--yet, by this point Joseph had studied Greek academically. The first thing you study is the alphabet. Caswell's claim doesn't wash.
- Joseph provided no translation of the Psalter.
- Caswell had a chance to get Joseph to commit himself to a translation, but refused to let Joseph take the book to translate: which was supposedly the whole reason he came to Nauvoo! Joseph walked right into the trap, and then Caswell essentially ran away.
- This is utterly implausible and shows Caswell to be lying, just as he lied about Joseph's language and manner of speech.
- Furthermore, other witnesses reported that they told Caswell the characters were Greek--so, even if Joseph didn't know, he had friends who would have tipped him off.
Quotes to consider
John Taylor:
- Concerning Mr. Caswall, I was at Nauvoo during the time of his visit. He came for the purpose of looking for evil. He was a wicked man, and associated with reprobates, mobocrats, and murderers. It is, I suppose, true that he was reverend gentleman; but it has been no uncommon thing with us to witness associations of this kind, nor for reverend gentlemen; so called, to be found leading on mobs to deeds of plunder and death. I saw Mr. Caswall in the printing office at Nauvoo; he had with him an old manuscript, and professed to be anxious to know what it was. I looked at it, and told him that I believed it was a Greek manuscript. In his book, he states that it was a Greek Psalter; but that none of the Mormons told him what it was. Herein is a falsehood, for I told him. Yet these are the men and books that we are to have our evidence from.[3] - [John Taylor,] "Three Nights: A Public Discussion between the Revds. C. W. Cleeve, James Robertson, and Philip Cater, and Elder John Taylor of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, at Boulogne-Sur-Mer, France" (Liverpool: John Taylor, 1850), 5. off-site
Additional information
- Joseph Smith and the Greek psalter—Critics claim that an ancient text of Greek psalms (a "psalter") was misidentified by Joseph Smith as a containing "reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphics. (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
There is a difference between an isolated incident and a pattern. The Greek Psalter, Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates, and some would add the Book of Mormon (DNA evidence, anachronisms, lack of archaeological, anthropological, cultural, linguistic, and metallurgical evidence to support claims), reveal a disturbing pattern in Joseph Smith's methods and perhaps his character. The testimony of his mother about his ability to spontaneously make up stories about ancient inhabitants of the Americas and the story he told about Zelph the White Lamanite while on the Zion's Camp March to Missouri are consistent with this pattern
FairMormon commentary
- One must first demonstrate a pattern before making sweeping claims about it.
- Notice the effort to sneak in a huge area of discussion on the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham—we won't handle those here, though there are lots of resources on these issues.
- The Greek Psalter episode does, however, reveal a "disturbing pattern" with MormonThink, and perhaps their character. They ignore data that does not fit their theory, and generally don't even mention it. They act as if things are proved when they have not proved them. And, they repeat the same charges over and over again.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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Template:Endnotes link
- [note] Dean Jessee, Ron Esplin, and Richard Lyman Bushman (editors), The Joseph Smith Papers: Journals, Vol. 1: 1832–1839 (Church Historian's Press, 2008), 135. ISBN 1570088497.
- [note] Craig L. Foster, "Henry Caswall: Anti-Mormon Extraordinaire," Brigham Young University Studies 35 no. 4 (1995-96), 144–?.