User:InProgress/Website reviews/W

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature. There are many statements given by the witnesses that indicate they only saw the angel and the plates in a visionary experience. Why would people need to see real, physical plates in a vision or a real angel that was physically on the earth? There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock.

FairMormon commentary

• David Whitmer said this: "No, sir! I was not under any hallucination, nor was I deceived! I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears! I know whereof I speak!" ^[1]
• And he said this: "'He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear;' it was no delusion! What is written is written, and he that readeth let him understand." ^[2]
• Sounds like he was pretty definite, if you ask us.

Additional information

• Were the experiences of the witnesses spiritual or literal?—Some critics suggest that the witnesses’ encounter with the angel and the plates took place solely in their minds. They claim that witnesses saw the angel in a “vision” and equate “vision” with imagination. (Link)

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The three witnesses did not all see the plates or angel at the same time. Only David Whitmer and perhaps Oliver Cowdery saw the angel together. Martin Harris removed himself from the group and did not see the angel until perhaps three days later (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71).

FairMormon commentary

• This story is well documented in official Church sources. Why is the fact that Martin's experience occurred later supposed to have meaning?

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
David Whitmer said "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." So which statement was David Whitmer lying about or had been mistaken about? Either way he doesn't sound like a completely trustworthy witness.

FairMormon commentary

• Why can't they both be true? God spoke to the three witnesses, and God told David Whitmer to leave in order to avoid being harmed. After all, Whitmer was more valuable as a Book of Mormon witness the longer he lived.
• Wasn't Whitmer even more valuable as a Book of Mormon witness after he left the Church, because he still didn't deny seeing the angel and the plates when he could have exposed the entire "scam."
• Why did Whitmer have his testimony of the Book of Mormon engraved on his tombstone? It reads: "The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one."

Additional information

• Did God tell David Whitmer to leave the Church?—David Whitmer, one of the Book of Mormon's Three Witnesses, said "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to "separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them." Critics argues that if members accept Whitmer's witness of the Book of Mormon, then they must also accept that God wanted David to repudiate the Church as false. Critics distort the historical record to make it appear that David Whitmer left the Church because he was told to, when it fact he was excommunicated prior to claiming any revelation to do so. The command to leave, if it was a true revelation, involved David's physical safety and not his membership in the Church, which he had already renounced. (Link)

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
All the witnesses had close ties to Joseph and his family. Some like Martin Harris had a substantial financial investment in the success of the Book of Mormon.

FairMormon commentary

• Why didn't Martin expose the Book of Mormon as a scam after he lost his investment?
• Why didn't Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and some of the eleven witnesses expose Joseph as a fraud after they left the Church?
• If they all knew together that it was a hoax, why didn't any one of them say anything?

Additional information

• Witnesses were "interested" and not to be trusted since they followed Joseph Smith—Critics claim that because the witnesses are "interested"—i.e., they were members of the Church and believers in Joseph's mission—they are therefore not reliable, since they cannot be "neutral" or "disinterested." (Link)

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
These men lived in the early 1800s and believed in magical things like many people did during that time period such as divining rods, second sight, magic, dreams, seer stones, etc. Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context.

FairMormon commentary

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Many of the witnesses ended up leaving the church and following other leaders and religions such as James Strang, the Shakers, Methodists, etc. By 1847 not a single one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the LDS Church.

FairMormon commentary

• Why didn't any of the eleven witnesses expose the fraud after they left the Church? Think about it.

Additional information

• Eight witnesses—Critics have tried to argue that the Eight witnesses only claimed a 'spiritual' or 'visionary' view of the plates, not a literal, physical one. The witnesses left concrete statements regarding the physical nature of the plates. There were others besides the eleven who saw and felt the plates, and testified that they were real. (Link)

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet, the church changed its doctrines in error and changed revelations against God's will.

FairMormon commentary

• Yes, they did, especially David Whitmer. So why didn't they simply deny that they ever saw an angel or the plates and blow the entire scam? Wouldn't that have made sense?

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself.

FairMormon commentary

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The "testimony of the witnesses" is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books etc. in those days to help spur sales. And of course, the BOM's producers originally intended to sell copies for $1.75 each.

FairMormon commentary

• So, if the point was simply to "spur sales" of the Book of Mormon, why did the witnesses stick to their testimonies until they died? They certainly weren't hoping to get any profits from the book by that time, right?
• Come to think of it, what was the financial motivation for all of the other witnesses with regard to sales of the Book of Mormon? Martin Harris was the only one invested in it.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
All three witnesses believed that God Himself had told them (through Joseph Smith) that they had been specially chosen to testify to the world that they had seen the angel and the plates –– if they had enough faith. Martin Harris was even told the exact words he must use: Joseph Smith said he had a revelation in which the Lord commanded Harris to say, “I have seen the things which the Lord hath shown unto Joseph Smith Jun., and I know of a surety that they are true, for I have seen them.” And just to clinch the command, God threatened Martin Harris, saying, “But if he deny this he will break the covenant which he has before covenanted with me, and behold, he is condemned.” A personal promise (and a threat of condemnation) coming directly from God is bound to have a powerful influence on a person’s thinking!

FairMormon commentary

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon. Seven people wrote affidavits testifying that they had read early drafts of the Book of Mormon by author Solomon Spalding. In some ways they are more credible than the BOM witnesses as they each wrote their own account instead of merely signing a prepared statement.

FairMormon commentary

• Do you find it amazing that so many of Joseph's neighbors had "recently" been reading the Book of Mormon?
• Did you ever wonder why the unfinished Spalding manuscript doesn't resemble the Book of Mormon? It is published. You can actually read it. It doesn't contain the Book of Mormon names that the "witnesses" said they did.
• Do you think that maybe ex-Mormon Dr. Phiastus Hurlbut "helped" the Spalding "witnesses" with their testimonies, which coincidentally all sound so similar?
• Do you wonder why, even though Eber D. Howe had the Spalding manuscript in his possession when including the Spalding affidavits in Mormonism Unvailed, that he chose not to use it because it didn't actually support the story given in the affidavits?
• Is it simply convenient that Howe "lost" the manuscript and it was not discovered again until years later?
• It certainly makes you think.

Additional information

• Spalding manuscript—Critics claim that Joseph Smith either plagiarized or relied upon a manuscript by Solomon Spaulding to write the Book of Mormon. There is a small group of critics who hold to the theory that the production of the Book of Mormon was a conspiracy involving Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and others. These critics search for links between Spalding and Rigdon. Joseph Smith is assumed to have been Rigdon's pawn. (Link)

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Here's the detailed accounts of several [James Strong witnesses that seem very similar to the BOM witnesses: Testimony of Witnesses to the Voree Plates

FairMormon commentary

• What is so extraordinary about this story? Seeing an angel is extraordinary, digging up some fake plates is not very extraordinary.
• Don't you find it extremely coincidental that the whole "buried plates" story is somewhat similar to Joseph Smith's story, years after the Book of Mormon was published?

Additional information

• Strangite parallels—Critics claim that break-off sects like James Strang's produced eyewitnesses of buried records, so Joseph's ability to do so is neither surprising nor persuasive. The Strangite witnesses were not all faithful, and some recanted and described the nature of the fraud perpetuated by Strang. (Link)

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
On November 5, 1975, seven men witnessed a spacecraft from another world hovering silently between tall pines in the Apache-Sitgreaves National forest of north-eastern Arizona. One of those men, Travis Walton, became an unwilling captive of an alien race when the other men fled in fear.

FairMormon commentary

• We have a result of Joseph's efforts - the Book of Mormon itself. Show us the tangible evidence of alien abduction.
• We're comparing seeing space aliens with the Book of Mormon witnesses?? Really?

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Obviously both sets of witnesses cannot be correct. At least one set, possibly both sets, of witnesses were either lying or were mistaken or deceived. Which group is to be believed or are they both in error? We're not saying we believe the Spalding witnesses over the Book of Mormon witnesses, but it proves the point that just because a group of people claims something extraordinary happened to them, it doesn't make it so.

FairMormon commentary

• The Spalding witnesses didn't claim that anything "extraordinary" happened to them - they claimed that Spalding had read them a manuscript. What's so extraordinary about that?
• Seeing an angel is extraordinary—hearing a manuscript read is not.
• Why not mention that all of these Spalding witnesses testimonies came through Dr. Phiastus Hurlbut, and that they were published in the first true anti-Mormon work, Mormonism Unvailed, by Eber D. Howe?
• Why not mention that the Spalding manuscript was in Howe's possession, but he didn't use it because it bore no resemblance to the Book of Mormon? And that it was lost for years only to turn up later, and that it can be read today and that it still doesn't resemble the Book of Mormon.

Additional information

• The Hurlbut affidavits—Many of Joseph Smith’s friends and neighbors signed affidavits that accused him and his family of being lazy, indolent, undependable treasure-seekers. (Link)

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
There are many, many reported witnesses to UFOs, Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, Abominable Snowman, alien abductions, gurus with magic powers,psychics, etc. There are literally hundreds of thousands of witnesses to these amazing phenomena. Should they be believed as well?

FairMormon commentary

• Have any UFO's, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, the Abominable Snowman, aliens, gurus or psychics produced a work comparable to the Book of Mormon?
• Does it sound like someone here is throwing every oddball thing they can at the witnesses and hoping that something "sticks?"

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Just because three witnesses signed a statement saying they saw an angel, doesn't mean it really happened.

Author's source(s)

• None, of course. This is pure speculation in contradiction to what the witnesses themselves stated.

FairMormon commentary

• Yet they put their reputations for the rest of their lives on the line by doing so...and by never denying it despite each one having a falling out with Joseph Smith. Think about that.
• That's the conclusion? To simply call the witnesses liars because you can't account for the numerous times that they reaffirmed their testimony?

Additional information

• What was the character of the witnesses?—Critics charge that the witnesses cannot be trusted, or are unreliable, because they were unstable personalities, prone to enthusiasm and exaggeration. Evidence amply demonstrates that the formal witnesses of the Book of Mormon were men of good character and reputation, and were recognized as such by contemporary non-Mormons. (Link)

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Faithful members would likely come up with explanations to counter these claims like the 3+8 witnesses signed a single statement because they so strongly agreed with their unified experience. However this comparison shows some of the inherent weaknesses of the using just witnesses to prove historical events. This also underscores the weaknesses in the BOM process to obtain witnesses to verify the BOM.

FairMormon commentary

• A witness is "One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced." That's what they did. That's what witnesses do. That's why they call them "witnesses," because they witnessed the events that they are relating as part of history.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Why should we believe all the Book of Mormon witnesses over the sworn affidavits of over dozens of unrelated townspeople?

FairMormon commentary

• Were any of these dozens of unrelated townspeople there when the angel was present? How would they know?
• Why are you comparing the witnesses to the plates to the Spalding affidavits anyway? One group said they saw the plates (and some an angel), the other group said that they heard a manuscript read.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
None of the witnesses should have been related to Joseph or each other. Most of the witnesses were either related or good friends. Having unrelated people as witnesses would be far more effective than using your brothers and father.

FairMormon commentary

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The witnesses should not have already been eager believers. There should have been some skeptics.

FairMormon commentary

• Why would an angel show up for skeptics? Are these men then supposed to immediately convert and risk their reputations by declaring to the world that they saw an angel?

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
There should have been no financial motive. Martin Harris mortgaged his farm and invested at least $3,000 of his own money into printing the Book of Mormon, so of course he had incentive to 'promote' the book.

FairMormon commentary

• Show how was the Book of Mormon supposed to get published? Was a printer supposed to magically do the work for free?

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Each of the witnesses should each have written their own testimony instead of merely signing a prepared statement written by Joseph. If the prepared document wasn't 100% accurate many people would simply sign it anyway as it would be too much of a hassle to have it completely rewritten by hand - especially in the 1800s.

FairMormon commentary

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The witnesses should have been much more detailed about this amazing event. What did the angel look like? What exactly did he say? How did he speak? There are almost no details provided which can be analyzed and compared. If each witness had simply written their own account and provided significant details then their individual testimonies could corroborate each other.

FairMormon commentary

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The witnesses should have been interviewed independently immediately after going public. They should have been interviewed the same way police do with witnesses to crimes or that investigators do with UFO cases. Ask questions to see if their stories match; How was the angel dressed? How tall was he? How did he speak?, etc.

FairMormon commentary

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The witnesses should not have used subjective language and say strange things like comparing seeing the plates with seeing a city through a mountain or using spiritual eyes instead of their natural eyes to view physical plates

FairMormon commentary

• Why not? How can anyone not describe their own experience in "subjective language?"
• The word "subjective" means "Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world." How can one describe one's own experience in anything other than subjective terms?

Additional information

• "Eye of Faith" and "Spiritual Eye" statements by Martin Harris—Martin Harris frequently told people that he did not see the golden plates and the angel with his natural eyes but rather with “spiritual eyes” or the “eye of faith.” (Link)

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The witnesses should not have been gullible people that believed in things like 'second sight', divining rods, finding treasure by placing a rock in a hat, etc. That the Three Witnesses were a gullible sort is illustrated by an incident in July, 1837. Joseph had left on a five-week missionary tour to Canada, only to find on his return that all three of the Witnesses had joined a faction opposing him. This faction rallied around a young girl who claimed to be a seeress by virtue of a black stone in which she read the future. David Whitmer, Martin Harris, and Oliver Cowdery all pledged her their loyalty, and Frederick G. Williams, formerly Joseph's First Counselor, became her scribe. The girl seeress would dance herself into a state of exhaustion, fall to the floor, and burst forth with revelations. (See Lucy Smith: Biographical Sketches, pp. 211-213).

FairMormon commentary

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
All of the witness should have been much more vocal and been interviewed much more often. There are very few interviews done with the witnesses that provide any additional information or corroboration of their statements. You would think that these people, after seeing such a magnificent sight, would spend their time testifying to the world about their experience instead of largely just signing a prepared statement and avoiding interviews by the media. Only three of the eight witnesses made separate statements that they had handled the plates. They were Joseph's two brothers, Hyrum and Samuel, and John Whitmer.

FairMormon commentary

• What? You mean they didn't? There are many testimonies and statements of the witnesses—especially David Whitmer.
• So, are we supposed to believe that these men would simply put their lives on hold for the next 50 years or so and just continue talking about their experience endlessly?
• They gave all the detail that there was to be had—what more are you looking for? There are only so many ways to describe an angel and a set of plates.
• Who said that they avoided interviews with "the media" (a 20th-century term if there ever was one). There are well-documented interviews with some of the witnesses in "the media."

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
And of course it would have helped had all the witnesses remained loyal to the Church for the rest of their lives instead of having most of them abandon it later on. It doesn't make much sense to leave the one, true Church of God if you have really received an indisputable witness that it was true. Why would these people risk being cast in Outer Darkness for all eternity for denying what they KNEW to be true unless they maybe had some doubts or knew it really wasn't true?

FairMormon commentary

• If the witnesses did not really see what they claimed to have seen, then why did they not expose the deception when they had their fallings out with Joseph Smith and the Church? Why didn't a single witness expose the sham?
• The witnesses were not witnesses of the "one, true Church of God": They were witnesses to the angel and the existence of the gold plates. They never denied their witness.

== Notes ==

1. [note] Interview with Joseph Smith III et al. (Richmond, Missouri, July 1884), originally published in The Saints' Herald (28 January 1936). Also quoted in Richard Lloyd Anderson, Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1981), p. 88.
2. [note] David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, 1887.