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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink: Difference between revisions
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The web site "MormonThink" is an anti-Mormon web site that claims to be operated by members of the Church. Its purpose is to introduce members to every possible piece of information that can possibly damage their testimony. They "would rather have a somewhat smaller church full of knowledgeable, loyal, full-believing members than a large church full of inactive, semi-believing members." The site is a popular reference for many anti-Mormon sites, since it claims to be balanced due to its inclusion of links to faith promoting sites such as FAIR. The site, however, is not merely an attempt to "steady the ark," but to lead people out of the church. The site's attitude toward religion is best summarized by their link to a routine by the late comedian George Carlin called "George Carlin - Religion is BS". According to "MormonThink": | The web site "MormonThink" is an anti-Mormon web site that claims to be operated by members of the Church. Its purpose is to introduce members to every possible piece of information that can possibly damage their testimony. They "would rather have a somewhat smaller church full of knowledgeable, loyal, full-believing members than a large church full of inactive, semi-believing members." The site is a popular reference for many anti-Mormon sites, since it claims to be balanced due to its inclusion of links to faith promoting sites such as FAIR. The site, however, is not merely an attempt to "steady the ark," but to lead people out of the church. The site's attitude toward religion is best summarized by their link to a routine by the late comedian George Carlin called "George Carlin - Religion is BS". According to "MormonThink": | ||
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
Comedian George Carlin has a 10 minute bit on why all religion is phony. Although comedic (and irreverent), it does make you think. | ''Comedian George Carlin has a 10 minute bit on why all religion is phony. Although comedic (and irreverent), it does make you think.'' | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
In FAIR's opinion, "MormonThink" is a wolf in sheep's clothing—a site which masquerades as a balanced site run by members, but with the true goal of leading people out of the Church. | |||
==A list of things that "would make the Church true"== | |||
According to MormonThink.com, if the Church were actually true, then "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website and FAIR's response. The questions come from the web page <nowiki>www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm</nowiki>. | According to MormonThink.com, if the Church were actually true, then "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website and FAIR's response. The questions come from the web page <nowiki>www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm</nowiki>. | ||
==There would be no variations in the story of the First Vision== | ===There would be no variations in the story of the First Vision=== | ||
{{Heading2|1. Joseph would have told the same version of the First Vision throughout his life. He would have gotten the details correct surrounding the most important, spectacular moment anyone could ever have in this life.}} | {{Heading2|1. Joseph would have told the same version of the First Vision throughout his life. He would have gotten the details correct surrounding the most important, spectacular moment anyone could ever have in this life.}} | ||
==Joseph's siblings would have been awakened by Moroni== | ===Joseph's siblings would have been awakened by Moroni=== | ||
{{Heading2|2. Joseph's five brothers (and probably the rest of the household) that were sleeping in his room on September 21, 1823 would have been awakened by the presence of Moroni. They would have testified of his visit as well.}} | {{Heading2|2. Joseph's five brothers (and probably the rest of the household) that were sleeping in his room on September 21, 1823 would have been awakened by the presence of Moroni. They would have testified of his visit as well.}} | ||
==Joseph would not have translated using a stone in a hat== | ===Joseph would not have translated using a stone in a hat=== | ||
{{Heading2|3. If the angel did indeed take back the gold plates and the urim and thummim from Joseph when Martin Harris lost the first 116 pages, he would have returned the urim and thummim to Joseph when he returned the gold plates to him, instead of having Joseph finish the translation using a common stone he found when digging a well.}} | {{Heading2|3. If the angel did indeed take back the gold plates and the urim and thummim from Joseph when Martin Harris lost the first 116 pages, he would have returned the urim and thummim to Joseph when he returned the gold plates to him, instead of having Joseph finish the translation using a common stone he found when digging a well.}} | ||
==Joseph would have looked at the gold plates while he translated== | ===Joseph would have looked at the gold plates while he translated=== | ||
{{Heading2|4. Joseph would likely have actually used the gold plates in the translation process, instead of putting an ordinary stone in a hat without even looking at the plates.}} | {{Heading2|4. Joseph would likely have actually used the gold plates in the translation process, instead of putting an ordinary stone in a hat without even looking at the plates.}} | ||
==Joseph would have re-translated the lost 116 pages== | ===Joseph would have re-translated the lost 116 pages=== | ||
{{Heading2|5. When the 116 pages were lost, Joseph would have simply retranslated the 'stolen' pages. If the pages were really stolen by evil men bent on foiling Joseph, the pages would have resurfaced in some form - either as a ransom attempt or foiled attempt to discredit Joseph. The stolen pages wouldn't have simply been destroyed by men who went to such trouble to obtain them.}} | {{Heading2|5. When the 116 pages were lost, Joseph would have simply retranslated the 'stolen' pages. If the pages were really stolen by evil men bent on foiling Joseph, the pages would have resurfaced in some form - either as a ransom attempt or foiled attempt to discredit Joseph. The stolen pages wouldn't have simply been destroyed by men who went to such trouble to obtain them.}} | ||
==The translation of the papyri and facsimilies would match that performed by Egyptologists== | ===The translation of the papyri and facsimilies would match that performed by Egyptologists=== | ||
{{Heading2|6. The translation of the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham would match what Egyptologists say they mean. The rediscovered papyri would also support the Book of Abraham as well.}} | {{Heading2|6. The translation of the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham would match what Egyptologists say they mean. The rediscovered papyri would also support the Book of Abraham as well.}} | ||
==There would be no Book of Mormon anachronisms== | ===There would be no Book of Mormon anachronisms=== | ||
{{Heading2|7. The Book of Mormon would not mention things that did not exist in the Americas during Book of Mormon times such as horses, elephants, cattle, goats, wheat, barley, silk, steel, etc. It would probably mention things that did exist such as corn, yams, beans, squash, llamas, sloths, jaguars, and monkeys.}} | {{Heading2|7. The Book of Mormon would not mention things that did not exist in the Americas during Book of Mormon times such as horses, elephants, cattle, goats, wheat, barley, silk, steel, etc. It would probably mention things that did exist such as corn, yams, beans, squash, llamas, sloths, jaguars, and monkeys.}} | ||
==Archaeology and linguistics would support the Book of Mormon== | ===Archaeology and linguistics would support the Book of Mormon=== | ||
{{Heading2|8. The BOM would be supported by archeological and linguistic evidence. Perhaps not so much evidence that we still wouldn't need faith, but something to show that the ancient Jews could have been in America.}} | {{Heading2|8. The BOM would be supported by archeological and linguistic evidence. Perhaps not so much evidence that we still wouldn't need faith, but something to show that the ancient Jews could have been in America.}} | ||
==There would be evidence of large battles at the Hill Cumorah== | ===There would be evidence of large battles at the Hill Cumorah=== | ||
{{Heading2|9. There would be some remains of two large battles at the Hill Cumorah where over two million people fought and died.}} | {{Heading2|9. There would be some remains of two large battles at the Hill Cumorah where over two million people fought and died.}} | ||
==DNA would prove that Native Americans descended from Israel== | ==DNA would prove that Native Americans descended from Israel== | ||
{{Heading2|10. DNA evidence would support that the American Indians and South American peoples descended from Israel.}} | {{Heading2|10. DNA evidence would support that the American Indians and South American peoples descended from Israel.}} | ||
==Joseph would have claimed that the Kinderhood plates were a fraud== | ===Joseph would have claimed that the Kinderhood plates were a fraud=== | ||
{{Heading2|11. Joseph would have either denounced the Kinderhook Plates as a fraud, or at least said he didn't know what they were.}} | {{Heading2|11. Joseph would have either denounced the Kinderhook Plates as a fraud, or at least said he didn't know what they were.}} | ||
==The witnesses statements would have been more definitive== | ===The witnesses statements would have been more definitive=== | ||
{{Heading2|12. The witnesses would have said all objective statements testifying of the BOM's divinity. They would not have said things like "I did not see them as I do that pencil case, yet I saw them with the eyes of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me - though at the time, they were covered with a cloth", 'he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain', etc.}} | {{Heading2|12. The witnesses would have said all objective statements testifying of the BOM's divinity. They would not have said things like "I did not see them as I do that pencil case, yet I saw them with the eyes of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me - though at the time, they were covered with a cloth", 'he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain', etc.}} | ||
==Some of the witnesses should have been skeptics== | ===Some of the witnesses should have been skeptics=== | ||
{{Heading2|13. Some of the witnesses should have been critics or skeptics and not related to each other. Each witness should have written their own testimony instead of merely signing a pre-prepared statement.}} | {{Heading2|13. Some of the witnesses should have been critics or skeptics and not related to each other. Each witness should have written their own testimony instead of merely signing a pre-prepared statement.}} | ||
==The Church should have been the first to "proclaim equality for blacks"== | ===The Church should have been the first to "proclaim equality for blacks"=== | ||
{{Heading2|14. God's true church would likely have been one of the first churches to proclaim equality for blacks instead of the last major religion in America to accept blacks as equals.}} | {{Heading2|14. God's true church would likely have been one of the first churches to proclaim equality for blacks instead of the last major religion in America to accept blacks as equals.}} | ||
==The "Curse of Cain" would never have been taught== | ===The "Curse of Cain" would never have been taught=== | ||
{{Heading2|15. There would never have been teachings such as blacks received the curse from Cain for being less valiant in the pre-existence, or that they are destined to be servants only in the next life.}} | {{Heading2|15. There would never have been teachings such as blacks received the curse from Cain for being less valiant in the pre-existence, or that they are destined to be servants only in the next life.}} | ||
==Polygamy would never have been practiced== | ===Polygamy would never have been practiced=== | ||
{{Heading2|16. Polygamy would have never been practiced. If it was really commanded by God, then it would have been done differently. It would have been practiced openly, honestly and with dignity, with no marriages to women already married or to underage girls. Joseph's wife would have full knowledge of the marriages and would have had to give her permission for each one. And probably one additional wife would have been sufficient instead of at least 33 wives for Joseph.}} | {{Heading2|16. Polygamy would have never been practiced. If it was really commanded by God, then it would have been done differently. It would have been practiced openly, honestly and with dignity, with no marriages to women already married or to underage girls. Joseph's wife would have full knowledge of the marriages and would have had to give her permission for each one. And probably one additional wife would have been sufficient instead of at least 33 wives for Joseph.}} | ||
==Joseph would not have claimed that a Greek psalter was a dictionary of Egyptian hieroglyphics== | ===Joseph would not have claimed that a Greek psalter was a dictionary of Egyptian hieroglyphics=== | ||
{{Heading2|17. Joseph would not have proclaimed that a Greek Psalter was really a dictionary of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. He would have either said what it really was, or that he just didn't know.}} | {{Heading2|17. Joseph would not have proclaimed that a Greek Psalter was really a dictionary of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. He would have either said what it really was, or that he just didn't know.}} | ||
==Modern prophets would prophesy in the same manner as Joseph did== | ===Modern prophets would prophesy in the same manner as Joseph did=== | ||
{{Heading2|18. The prophets since Joseph, including the current one, would have the same prophetic abilities Joseph had. They would finish the translation of the Bible that Joseph started, and they would get answers from God for the many troubling issues members have about the history and doctrine of the Church like blacks and the priesthood or the Book of Abraham papyri translation problems.}} | {{Heading2|18. The prophets since Joseph, including the current one, would have the same prophetic abilities Joseph had. They would finish the translation of the Bible that Joseph started, and they would get answers from God for the many troubling issues members have about the history and doctrine of the Church like blacks and the priesthood or the Book of Abraham papyri translation problems.}} | ||
==The endowment would not have any relation to Masonry== | ===The endowment would not have any relation to Masonry=== | ||
{{Heading2|19. The temple endowment ceremony would not have come from the Masonry rituals that began in the middle ages.}} | {{Heading2|19. The temple endowment ceremony would not have come from the Masonry rituals that began in the middle ages.}} | ||
==The endowment "would not be so secretive"== | ===The endowment "would not be so secretive"=== | ||
{{Heading2|20. The temple endowment ceremony would be a spiritual, uplifting experience for everyone that went through it, and it probably would not be so secretive.}} | {{Heading2|20. The temple endowment ceremony would be a spiritual, uplifting experience for everyone that went through it, and it probably would not be so secretive.}} | ||
==The endowment would not have changed== | ===The endowment would not have changed=== | ||
{{Heading2|21. The temple endowment ceremony would never have had...uncomfortable penalties, oath of vengeance, etc. would never have been in there either. If any of these things were really from God, then they'd still be in the ceremony now. [FAIR NOTE: the ellipsis contains temple content that was removed in the early 1990s]}} | {{Heading2|21. The temple endowment ceremony would never have had...uncomfortable penalties, oath of vengeance, etc. would never have been in there either. If any of these things were really from God, then they'd still be in the ceremony now. [FAIR NOTE: the ellipsis contains temple content that was removed in the early 1990s]}} | ||
==The name of the Church would never have changed== | ===The name of the Church would never have changed=== | ||
{{Heading2|22. The Church would have always had the same, correct name since it was formed in 1830 and not changed four years later to a name that didn't even include Christ in the name. It would not have to change it again another four years later to yet another name.}} | {{Heading2|22. The Church would have always had the same, correct name since it was formed in 1830 and not changed four years later to a name that didn't even include Christ in the name. It would not have to change it again another four years later to yet another name.}} | ||
==There would be no conflict between testimony and science== | ===There would be no conflict between testimony and science=== | ||
{{Heading2|23. Testimonies wouldn't have to override facts and conflict with science.}} | {{Heading2|23. Testimonies wouldn't have to override facts and conflict with science.}} | ||
==Everyone who prays about the Church or the Book of Mormon should receive the same answer== | ==Everyone who prays about the Church or the Book of Mormon should receive the same answer== | ||
{{Heading2|24. If testimonies are real, then everyone that prays about the Church or the Book of Mormon should get the same confirming answers.}} | {{Heading2|24. If testimonies are real, then everyone that prays about the Church or the Book of Mormon should get the same confirming answers.}} | ||
==The Church would be the "most honest of organizations"== | ===The Church would be the "most honest of organizations"=== | ||
{{Heading2|25. The true church would be the most honest of organizations. It would never publish artwork or articles in its official magazines that mislead readers as to how the Book of Mormon was translated, or that Joseph was alone when Moroni visited him. It wouldn't sugarcoat its history. The true church would be totally open and disclose what the leaders get paid (even public corporations do that). They would publish their financial statements and budgets as do many other churches. The true church would teach everything honestly and lead by example. It would not change the wording in its lesson manuals to act as if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young only had one wife each. You should never have to worry that there is another side of its history not taught by the church itself.}} | {{Heading2|25. The true church would be the most honest of organizations. It would never publish artwork or articles in its official magazines that mislead readers as to how the Book of Mormon was translated, or that Joseph was alone when Moroni visited him. It wouldn't sugarcoat its history. The true church would be totally open and disclose what the leaders get paid (even public corporations do that). They would publish their financial statements and budgets as do many other churches. The true church would teach everything honestly and lead by example. It would not change the wording in its lesson manuals to act as if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young only had one wife each. You should never have to worry that there is another side of its history not taught by the church itself.}} | ||
Revision as of 20:16, 9 July 2009
"MormonThink" list of items that would "make the Church true"
You say that I may have contributed to “accelerating someone’s journey through Mormonism”. That seems to imply that they would eventually leave Mormonism anyway so all I did was speed up the process. If that’s the case, I would say that I probably did them a favor. If they would eventually leave the church regardless then isn’t it better that they make that decision now and just move on?
—"Truthseeker," webmaster at MormonThink.com, email, July 7, 2009
The web site "MormonThink" is an anti-Mormon web site that claims to be operated by members of the Church. Its purpose is to introduce members to every possible piece of information that can possibly damage their testimony. They "would rather have a somewhat smaller church full of knowledgeable, loyal, full-believing members than a large church full of inactive, semi-believing members." The site is a popular reference for many anti-Mormon sites, since it claims to be balanced due to its inclusion of links to faith promoting sites such as FAIR. The site, however, is not merely an attempt to "steady the ark," but to lead people out of the church. The site's attitude toward religion is best summarized by their link to a routine by the late comedian George Carlin called "George Carlin - Religion is BS". According to "MormonThink":
Comedian George Carlin has a 10 minute bit on why all religion is phony. Although comedic (and irreverent), it does make you think.
In FAIR's opinion, "MormonThink" is a wolf in sheep's clothing—a site which masquerades as a balanced site run by members, but with the true goal of leading people out of the Church.
A list of things that "would make the Church true"
According to MormonThink.com, if the Church were actually true, then "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website and FAIR's response. The questions come from the web page www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm.