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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink: Difference between revisions
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According to MormonThink.com, if the Church were actually true, then "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website and FAIR's response. The questions come from the web page <nowiki>www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm</nowiki>. | According to MormonThink.com, if the Church were actually true, then "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website and FAIR's response. The questions come from the web page <nowiki>www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm</nowiki>. | ||
==1. Joseph would have told the same version of the First Vision throughout his life. | ==1. Joseph would have told the same version of the First Vision throughout his life.== | ||
==2. Joseph's five brothers (and probably the rest of the household) that were sleeping in his room on September 21, 1823 would have been awakened by the presence of Moroni. They would have testified of his visit as well.== | {{Heading2|1. Joseph would have told the same version of the First Vision throughout his life. He would have gotten the details correct surrounding the most important, spectacular moment anyone could ever have in this life.}} | ||
==3. If the angel did indeed take back the gold plates and the urim and thummim from Joseph when Martin Harris lost the first 116 pages, he would have returned the urim and thummim to Joseph when he returned the gold plates to him, instead of having Joseph finish the translation using a common stone he found when digging a well.== | ==2. Joseph's siblings would have been awakened by Moroni== | ||
==4. Joseph would likely have actually used the gold plates in the translation process, instead of putting an ordinary stone in a hat without even looking at the plates.== | {{Heading2|2. Joseph's five brothers (and probably the rest of the household) that were sleeping in his room on September 21, 1823 would have been awakened by the presence of Moroni. They would have testified of his visit as well.}} | ||
==5. When the 116 pages were lost, Joseph would have simply retranslated the 'stolen' pages. If the pages were really stolen by evil men bent on foiling Joseph, the pages would have resurfaced in some form - either as a ransom attempt or foiled attempt to discredit Joseph. The stolen pages wouldn't have simply been destroyed by men who went to such trouble to obtain them.== | ==Joseph would not have translated using a stone in a hat== | ||
==6. The translation of the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham would match what Egyptologists say they mean. The rediscovered papyri would also support the Book of Abraham as well.== | {{Heading2|3. If the angel did indeed take back the gold plates and the urim and thummim from Joseph when Martin Harris lost the first 116 pages, he would have returned the urim and thummim to Joseph when he returned the gold plates to him, instead of having Joseph finish the translation using a common stone he found when digging a well.}} | ||
==7. The Book of Mormon would not mention things that did not exist in the Americas during Book of Mormon times such as horses, elephants, cattle, goats, wheat, barley, silk, steel, etc. It would probably mention things that did exist such as corn, yams, beans, squash, llamas, sloths, jaguars, and monkeys.== | ==Joseph would have looked at the gold plates while he translated== | ||
==8. The BOM would be supported by archeological and linguistic evidence. Perhaps not so much evidence that we still wouldn't need faith, but something to show that the ancient Jews could have been in America.== | {{Heading2|4. Joseph would likely have actually used the gold plates in the translation process, instead of putting an ordinary stone in a hat without even looking at the plates.}} | ||
==9. There would be some remains of two large battles at the Hill Cumorah where over two million people fought and died.== | ==Joseph would have re-translated the lost 116 pages== | ||
==10. DNA evidence would support that the American Indians and South American peoples descended from Israel.== | {{Heading2|5. When the 116 pages were lost, Joseph would have simply retranslated the 'stolen' pages. If the pages were really stolen by evil men bent on foiling Joseph, the pages would have resurfaced in some form - either as a ransom attempt or foiled attempt to discredit Joseph. The stolen pages wouldn't have simply been destroyed by men who went to such trouble to obtain them.}} | ||
==11. Joseph would have either denounced the Kinderhook Plates as a fraud, or at least said he didn't know what they were.== | ==The translation of the papyri and facsimilies would match that performed by Egyptologists== | ||
==12. The witnesses would have said all objective statements testifying of the BOM's divinity. They would not have said things like "I did not see them as I do that pencil case, yet I saw them with the eyes of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me - though at the time, they were covered with a cloth", 'he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain', etc. | {{Heading2|6. The translation of the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham would match what Egyptologists say they mean. The rediscovered papyri would also support the Book of Abraham as well.}} | ||
==There would be no Book of Mormon anachronisms== | |||
{{Heading2|7. The Book of Mormon would not mention things that did not exist in the Americas during Book of Mormon times such as horses, elephants, cattle, goats, wheat, barley, silk, steel, etc. It would probably mention things that did exist such as corn, yams, beans, squash, llamas, sloths, jaguars, and monkeys.}} | |||
==Archaeology and linguistics would support the Book of Mormon== | |||
{{Heading2|8. The BOM would be supported by archeological and linguistic evidence. Perhaps not so much evidence that we still wouldn't need faith, but something to show that the ancient Jews could have been in America.}} | |||
==There would be evidence of large battles at the Hill Cumorah== | |||
{{Heading2|9. There would be some remains of two large battles at the Hill Cumorah where over two million people fought and died.}} | |||
==DNA would prove that Native Americans descended from Israel== | |||
{{Heading2|10. DNA evidence would support that the American Indians and South American peoples descended from Israel.}} | |||
==Joseph would have claimed that the Kinderhood plates were a fraud== | |||
{{Heading2|11. Joseph would have either denounced the Kinderhook Plates as a fraud, or at least said he didn't know what they were.}} | |||
==The witnesses statements would have been more definitive== | |||
{{Heading2|12. The witnesses would have said all objective statements testifying of the BOM's divinity. They would not have said things like "I did not see them as I do that pencil case, yet I saw them with the eyes of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me - though at the time, they were covered with a cloth", 'he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain', etc.}} | |||
==13. Some of the witnesses should have been critics or skeptics and not related to each other. Each witness should have written their own testimony instead of merely signing a pre-prepared statement.== | ==13. Some of the witnesses should have been critics or skeptics and not related to each other. Each witness should have written their own testimony instead of merely signing a pre-prepared statement.== | ||
==14. God's true church would likely have been one of the first churches to proclaim equality for blacks instead of the last major religion in America to accept blacks as equals.== | ==14. God's true church would likely have been one of the first churches to proclaim equality for blacks instead of the last major religion in America to accept blacks as equals.== | ||
Revision as of 20:02, 9 July 2009
"MormonThink" list of items that would "make the Church true"
You say that I may have contributed to “accelerating someone’s journey through Mormonism”. That seems to imply that they would eventually leave Mormonism anyway so all I did was speed up the process. If that’s the case, I would say that I probably did them a favor. If they would eventually leave the church regardless then isn’t it better that they make that decision now and just move on?
—"Truthseeker," webmaster at MormonThink.com, email, July 7, 2009
The web site "MormonThink" is an anti-Mormon web site that claims to be operated by members of the Church. Its purpose is to introduce members to every possible piece of information that can possibly damage their testimony. They "would rather have a somewhat smaller church full of knowledgeable, loyal, full-believing members than a large church full of inactive, semi-believing members." The site is a popular reference for many anti-Mormon sites, since it claims to be balanced due to its inclusion of links to faith promoting sites such as FAIR. The site, however, is not merely an attempt to "steady the ark," but to lead people out of the church. The site's attitude toward religion is best summarized by their link to a routine by the late comedian George Carlin called "George Carlin - Religion is BS". According to "MormonThink":
Comedian George Carlin has a 10 minute bit on why all religion is phony. Although comedic (and irreverent), it does make you think.
According to MormonThink.com, if the Church were actually true, then "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website and FAIR's response. The questions come from the web page www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm.