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Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 3: Difference between revisions
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{{BeginClaimsTable}}
{{BeginClaimsTable}}
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====41, 500 n.2-4====
====41, 500 n2-4 (HB)====
||Joseph used at least two seer stones.
||Did Joseph use at least two seer stones?
||
||
*[[Joseph Smith and seer stones]]
*[[Joseph Smith and seer stones]]
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===42, 500 n.7====
====42, 500n7 (HB)====
||Isaac Hale, Emma's father, disapproved of Joseph because of his money digging activities.
||Did Isaac Hale, Emma's father, disapprove of Joseph because of his money digging activities?
||
||
*[[The Hurlbut affidavits#Isaac Hale|The Hurlbut affidavits—Isaac Hale]]
*[[The Hurlbut affidavits#Isaac Hale|The Hurlbut affidavits—Isaac Hale]]
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====44====
====44====
||Joseph was pronounced "guilty" of performing illegal activities with the stone.
||Was Joseph pronounced "guilty" of performing illegal activities with his seer stone?
||
||
*[[Joseph Smith's 1826 glasslooking trial]]
*[[Joseph Smith's 1826 glasslooking trial]]
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====46, 503 n.18====
====46, 503 n.18====
||Hugh Nibley said, "If this court record is authentic, it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith.
||Regarding Joseph's "trial," Hugh Nibley said, "If this court record is authentic, it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith."
||
||
*[[Joseph Smith's 1826 glasslooking trial]]
*[[Joseph Smith's 1826 glasslooking trial]]
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====46, 503 n.20====
====46, 503n20 (HB)====
||Francis Kirkham claimed that "If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the ''Book of Mormon'' was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church.
||Francis Kirkham claimed that "If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the ''Book of Mormon'' was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church."
||
||
*[[Joseph Smith's 1826 glasslooking trial]]
*[[Joseph Smith's 1826 glasslooking trial]]
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====47, 503 n.22====
====47, 503n22 (HB)====
||Joseph realized that "money-digging alone was bringing in only about $14 a month, which was not nearly enough to support a family."
||Did Joseph realize that money-digging was only earning him $14 a month, and that this was "not nearly enough to support a family?"
||
||
*[[Joseph Smith and money digging]]
*[[Joseph Smith and money digging]]
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====47, 503 n.23====
====47, 503n23 (HB)====
||Joseph initially "attached no religious significance" to the "golden book" that he told people he would be retrieving. He instead "touted it as a book that would 'tell him how to get money that was buried in the ground.'"
||Is it true that Joseph initially "attached no religious significance" to the "golden book" that he told people he would be retrieving, and that he instead said that the book would "tell him how to get money that was buried in the ground?"
||
||
*[[The Hurlbut affidavits]]  
*[[The Hurlbut affidavits]]  
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====48, 503 n.25====
====48, 503n25 (HB)====
||Joseph decided to convert his book into a saga about America's ancient inhabitants as a money making scheme.
||Did Joseph decide to convert his book into a saga about America's ancient inhabitants as a money making scheme?
||  
||  
*The author simply repeats Brodie's supposition. There is no actual evidence that this was the case.
*The author simply repeats Brodie's supposition. There is no actual evidence that this was the case.
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====503 n.25====
====503n25 (HB)====
||Joseph tried to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon in Canada.
||Did Joseph try to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon in Canada?
||
||
*[[Did Joseph Smith attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright?]]
*[[Did Joseph Smith attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright?]]
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====48, 503-4 n.29-32====
====48, 503-4n29-32 (HB)====
||One of Joseph's early descriptions of Moroni was of a bloody ghost with his throat cut.
||Was one of Joseph's early descriptions of Moroni that of a "bloody ghost" with his throat cut?
||
||
* These supposed "early" accounts comes from hostile statements made forty to fifty years later!
* These supposed "early" accounts comes from hostile statements made forty to fifty years later!
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====50-51, n.34-36====
====50-51, n34-36 (HB)====
||"The Smiths eventually changed Joseph's 'dream' of a ghost to a 'vision' of a spirit (but not yet an angel)...A 'toad-like' creature 'assumed the appearance of a man' and struck Joseph on the side of his head, telling him that it was not yet time to retrieve the plates."
||Did a "toad-like" creature which "assumed the appearance of a man" and struck Joseph on the side of his head, prevent him from retriving the gold plates?
||
||
*[[The Hurlbut affidavits#Willard Chase|The Hurlbut affidavits—Willard Chase]]  
*[[The Hurlbut affidavits#Willard Chase|The Hurlbut affidavits—Willard Chase]]  
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====51====
====51 (HB)====
||"A subsequent version of Smith's ever-changing tale..."
||The author refers to "[A] subsequent version of Smith's ever-changing tale..."
||  
||  
*The author wishes to portray all of these stories as successive evolutions.  In fact, the religious aspects appear in the very earliest accounts; only later hostile accounts add more and more "magical" aspects:
*The author wishes to portray all of these stories as successive evolutions.  In fact, the religious aspects appear in the very earliest accounts; only later hostile accounts add more and more "magical" aspects:
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====51====
====51 (HB)====
||"Until well into the late 1800s it was widely understood that Smith found the golden plates not by a dream, or a ghost, or a vision—but by looking into his peep-stone and seeing where they had been deposited.
||Was it "widely understood" in the 1800s the Joseph located the plates by using his seer stone to see where they had been deposited?
||
||
*[[One Nation Under Gods#Absurd claims|Absurd claims]]  
*[[One Nation Under Gods#Absurd claims|Absurd claims]]  
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====51====
====51 (HB)====
||"all of the ''religious'' aspects of Smith's adventures came much later."
||Is it true that "all of the ''religious'' aspects" of Joseph's story were added later?
||
||
*In fact, the religious aspects appear in the very earliest accounts; only later hostile accounts add more and more "magical" aspects:
*In fact, the religious aspects appear in the very earliest accounts; only later hostile accounts add more and more "magical" aspects:
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====52 (HB)====
====52====
||Did Joseph Smith claim that the moon was inhabited?
||Joseph Smith claimed that the moon was inhabited.
||
||
*[[Joseph Smith and moonmen]]
*[[Joseph Smith and moonmen]]
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====52====
====52 (HB)====
||Joseph taught the doctrine of "Caucasians advancing to godhood"
||Did Joseph teach the doctrine of "Caucasians advancing to godhood?"
||  
||  
*We would like to see a reference to this doctrine of "Caucasians advancing to godhood."
*We would like to see a reference to this doctrine of "Caucasians advancing to godhood."
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====52====
====52 (HB)====
||Joseph taught the notion that "Blacks, Indians, and other people of color are cursed spirits."
||Did Joseph teach the notion that "Blacks, Indians, and other people of color are cursed spirits?"
||
||
*[[Lamanite curse]]
*[[Lamanite curse]]
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====53, 505-506n47 (HB)<br>53, 503-504n47 (PB)====
====53, 505-506n47 (HB) 53, 503-504n47 (PB)====
||"After all, no one had actually seen the plates, nor would anyone ''ever'' see them"
||The author states: "After all, no one had actually seen the plates, nor would anyone ''ever'' see them"
||
||
*[[One Nation Under Gods#Absurd clams|Absurd claims]]
*[[One Nation Under Gods#Absurd clams|Absurd claims]]
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====505 n.47====
====505n47 (HB)====
||The witnesses only saw the plates through "visionary experiences."
||Did the witnesses only see the plates through "visionary experiences?"
||  
||  
*[[Book of Mormon witnesses/Spiritual or literal]]
*[[Book of Mormon witnesses/Spiritual or literal]]
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====505 n.47====
====505n47 (HB)====
||The eight witnesses only saw the plates as long as they were covered with a cloth of some kind.
||Did the eight witnesses only "see" the plates as long as they were covered with a cloth of some kind?
||  
||  
*[[Book of Mormon witnesses/Spiritual or literal]]
*[[Book of Mormon witnesses/Spiritual or literal]]
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====505 n.47====
====505n47 (HB)====
||Martin Harris said that none of the eight witnesses ever saw the plates, and that he only handled them in a box or under a cloth.
||Did Martin Harris say that none of the eight witnesses ever saw the plates, and that he only handled them in a box or under a cloth?
||  
||  
*[["Eye of Faith"/"Spiritual Eye" statements by Martin Harris]]
*[["Eye of Faith"/"Spiritual Eye" statements by Martin Harris]]
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====505 n.47====
====505n47 (HB)====
||Joseph Smith claimed that the Three Witnesses saw the plates in a vision.
||Joseph Smith claimed that the Three Witnesses saw the plates in a vision.
||  
||  
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====505 n.47====
====505n47 (HB)====
||David Whitmer "agreed that neither he, nor the other Three Witnesses, ever physically saw or handled the plates.
||Did David Whitmer say that none of the Three Witnesses ever actually physically saw or handled the plates?
||  
||  
* Whitmer wrote a letter in which he said: "As to what you Say about the correspondence published by P Whilhelm Poulson M D Aug[ust] 20th 1878.  I surely did not make the Statement which you Say he reports me to have made, for it is not according to the facts.  And I have always in the fear of God, tried to give a true statement to the best of my recollection in regard to all matters which I have attempted to Explain."{{ref|whitmer.1}}
* Whitmer wrote a letter in which he said: "As to what you Say about the correspondence published by P Whilhelm Poulson M D Aug[ust] 20th 1878.  I surely did not make the Statement which you Say he reports me to have made, for it is not according to the facts.  And I have always in the fear of God, tried to give a true statement to the best of my recollection in regard to all matters which I have attempted to Explain."{{ref|whitmer.1}}
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====508 n.59====
====508n59 (HB)====
||"Mormons often try to discredit Anthon by pointing out an alleged discrepancy between his letters, but there exists no such discrepancy.
||Do Latter-day Saint try to discredit statements of Charles Anthon by pointing out a discrepancy between his letters, where no actual discrepancy exist?
||
||
* Richard Bushman disagrees:
* Richard Bushman disagrees:
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====55, 508n60 (HB)<br>55, 506n60 (PB)====
====55, 508n60 (HB) 55, 506n60 (PB)====
||Scholars have declared that there is no language called "Reformed Egyptian."
||Have scholars have declared that there is no language called "Reformed Egyptian?"
||
||
*[[Book of Mormon anachronisms/Reformed Egyptian|Reformed Egyptian]]
*[[Book of Mormon anachronisms/Reformed Egyptian|Reformed Egyptian]]
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====55, 508 n.62====
====55, 508n62 (HB)====
||Joseph used his "peep-stone" to translate the Book of Mormon.
||Did Joseph use his "peep stone" to translate the Book of Mormon?
||
||
*[[Book of Mormon translation method]]
*[[Book of Mormon translation method]]
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====56, 508 n.63-65====
====56, 508n63-65 (HB)====
||Emma Smith and David Whitmer said that Joseph translated using his seer stone in a hat.
||Did Emma Smith and David Whitmer confirm that Joseph translated using his seer stone in a hat?
||
||
*[[Book of Mormon translation method]]
*[[Book of Mormon translation method]]

Revision as of 04:29, 14 January 2009


Claims made in "Chapter 2: Moroni, Magic, and Masonry"
A FAIR Analysis of:
Criticism of Mormonism/Books
A work by author: Richard Abanes
 Claims made in "Chapter 4: Smith's Golden Book"

Claims made in "Chapter 3: From Profit to Prophet"

Page Claim Response Author's sources

41, 500 n2-4 (HB)

 Did Joseph use at least two seer stones?

42, 500n7 (HB)

 Did Isaac Hale, Emma's father, disapprove of Joseph because of his money digging activities?

44

 Was Joseph pronounced "guilty" of performing illegal activities with his seer stone?
  • A.W. Benton, Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, April 9, 1831, New Series 2, 120.

46, 503 n.18

 Regarding Joseph's "trial," Hugh Nibley said, "If this court record is authentic, it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith."
  • Hugh Nibley, The Myth Makers, 142.

46, 503n20 (HB)

 Francis Kirkham claimed that "If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church."
  • Francis Kirkham, A New Witness for Christ in the America, 386.

47, 503n22 (HB)

 Did Joseph realize that money-digging was only earning him $14 a month, and that this was "not nearly enough to support a family?"
  • History of the Church 3:29

47, 503n23 (HB)

 Is it true that Joseph initially "attached no religious significance" to the "golden book" that he told people he would be retrieving, and that he instead said that the book would "tell him how to get money that was buried in the ground?"
  • Parley Chase, letter to James T. Cobb, April 3, 1879 quoted in Wyl, Joseph Smith, the Prophet, His Family, and His Friends, 276.

48, 503n25 (HB)

 Did Joseph decide to convert his book into a saga about America's ancient inhabitants as a money making scheme?

503n25 (HB)

 Did Joseph try to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon in Canada?
  • Hiram Page, letter to William McLellin, February 2, 1848.
  • David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, 30-31.

48, 503-4n29-32 (HB)

 Was one of Joseph's early descriptions of Moroni that of a "bloody ghost" with his throat cut?
  • Hiel Lewis, Amboy Journal, April 30, 1879, quote in Wesley P. Walters, "The Mormon Prophet Attempts to Join the Methodists," reprinted in Wyl, Mormon Portraits, 79-80.
  • Fayette Lapham [May 1870], reprinted in Dan Vogel (editor), Early Mormon Documents (Salt Lake City, Signature Books, 1996–2003), 5 vols, 1:459.
  •  Citation error: the reference to the dream and bloody clothes is on p. 458.

50-51, n34-36 (HB)

 Did a "toad-like" creature which "assumed the appearance of a man" and struck Joseph on the side of his head, prevent him from retriving the gold plates?

51 (HB)

 The author refers to "[A] subsequent version of Smith's ever-changing tale..."
  • No source given.

51 (HB)

 Was it "widely understood" in the 1800s the Joseph located the plates by using his seer stone to see where they had been deposited?
  • Orasmus Turner, History of the Pioneer Settlement of Phelps and Gorham's Purchase, and Morris Reserve. (1852)
  • Hosea Stout, On the Mormon Frontier: The Diary of Hosea Stout, vol. 2, 593.
  • Martin Harris, Tiffany's Monthly, vol. 5, 163, 169.
  • Widely understood?? The author cites several second-hand sources...from the 1850s!

51 (HB)

 Is it true that "all of the religious aspects" of Joseph's story were added later?
  •  The author's claim is false
  • Orasmus Turner, 214.
  • Hiel Lewis.

52 (HB)

 Did Joseph Smith claim that the moon was inhabited?
  • Oliver B. Huntington, "The Inhabitants of the Moon," The Young Woman's Journal, 1892, vol. 3, 263-264.

52 (HB)

 Did Joseph teach the doctrine of "Caucasians advancing to godhood?"
  • No source provided.

52 (HB)

 Did Joseph teach the notion that "Blacks, Indians, and other people of color are cursed spirits?"
  • No source provided.

53, 505-506n47 (HB) 53, 503-504n47 (PB)

 The author states: "After all, no one had actually seen the plates, nor would anyone ever see them"
  •  The author's claim is false
  •  Misrepresentation of source: these testimonies assert that they did see the plates, not that "no one" had.
    • Testimony of the Three Witnesses
    • Testimony of the Eight Witnesses

505n47 (HB)

 Did the witnesses only see the plates through "visionary experiences?"
  • No source provided.

505n47 (HB)

 Did the eight witnesses only "see" the plates as long as they were covered with a cloth of some kind?
  • No source provided.

505n47 (HB)

 Did Martin Harris say that none of the eight witnesses ever saw the plates, and that he only handled them in a box or under a cloth?

505n47 (HB)

 Joseph Smith claimed that the Three Witnesses saw the plates in a vision.
  • Joseph Smith, "History of Joseph Smith—Continued", Times and Seasons, September 1, 1842, vol. 3, no. 21, 897-898.

505n47 (HB)

 Did David Whitmer say that none of the Three Witnesses ever actually physically saw or handled the plates?
  • Whitmer wrote a letter in which he said: "As to what you Say about the correspondence published by P Whilhelm Poulson M D Aug[ust] 20th 1878. I surely did not make the Statement which you Say he reports me to have made, for it is not according to the facts. And I have always in the fear of God, tried to give a true statement to the best of my recollection in regard to all matters which I have attempted to Explain."[1]
  • The author ignores multiple confirmed statements from the witnesses, and cites a statement which the witness explicitly rejects.
  • Book of Mormon witnesses/Recant
  • Spiritual or literal?
  •  The author's claim is false
  • David Whitmer, interview recorded by P. Wilhelm Poulson, c. early 1878, reprinted in Deseret Evening News, August 16, 1878. [Available in Dan Vogel (editor), Early Mormon Documents (Salt Lake City, Signature Books, 1996–2003), 5 vols, 6:37–40.]
  • Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1945), 77-80. ( Index of claims )
  • Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism—Shadow or Reality?, 5th edition, (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1987), 50-55.

508n59 (HB)

 Do Latter-day Saint try to discredit statements of Charles Anthon by pointing out a discrepancy between his letters, where no actual discrepancy exist?
  • Persuitte, 303-304, endnote#19.

55, 508n60 (HB) 55, 506n60 (PB)

 Have scholars have declared that there is no language called "Reformed Egyptian?"

55, 508n62 (HB)

 Did Joseph use his "peep stone" to translate the Book of Mormon?

56, 508n63-65 (HB)

 Did Emma Smith and David Whitmer confirm that Joseph translated using his seer stone in a hat?
  • Emma Smith Bidamon, Interview with Joseph Smith, III, February 1879, reprinted in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, vol. 1, 539.
  • Martin Harris, Interview with Anthony Metcalf, c. 1873-1874. Quoted in A. Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast..., reprinted in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, 346-347.
  • David Whitmer, An Address to all believers in Christ, 12.

Endnotes

  1. [note]  David Whitmer to S.T. Mouch, letter (18 November 1882), Whitmer Collection, RLDS Church Library -Archives, Independence, Missouri; cited in Dan Vogel (editor), Early Mormon Documents (Salt Lake City, Signature Books, 1996–2003), 5 vols, 6:36.

Further reading

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{{To learn more box:responses to: D. Michael Quinn}} To learn more about responses to: D. Michael Quinn edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Dan Vogel}} To learn more about responses to: Dan Vogel edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: David John Buerger}} To learn more about responses to: David John Buerger edit
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{{To learn more box:responses to: John Dehlin}} To learn more about responses to: John Dehlin edit
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