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| Clearly then, as we will see below, this missionary's statement does not reflect the entirety of LDS thought on the Godhead up to that point. Ironically, his interlocutor's response harmonizes better with the Lecture's catechism and present-day LDS thought. <ref>Oliver Barr, “Mormonism--No. V,” ''The Christian Palladium'' (Union Mills, New York) 6, no. 18 (15 January 1838): 275. {{link|url=http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/BOMP&CISOPTR=1726&REC=14}}</ref> It is perhaps not surprising that the missionary let his critic have the last word, despite promising to address further issues! (This exchange provides an excellent lesson for apologists—when one makes a mistake or misstatement, one should admit it, and not try to salvage a bad argument.) | | Clearly then, as we will see below, this missionary's statement does not reflect the entirety of LDS thought on the Godhead up to that point. Ironically, his interlocutor's response harmonizes better with the Lecture's catechism and present-day LDS thought. <ref>Oliver Barr, “Mormonism--No. V,” ''The Christian Palladium'' (Union Mills, New York) 6, no. 18 (15 January 1838): 275. {{link|url=http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/BOMP&CISOPTR=1726&REC=14}}</ref> It is perhaps not surprising that the missionary let his critic have the last word, despite promising to address further issues! (This exchange provides an excellent lesson for apologists—when one makes a mistake or misstatement, one should admit it, and not try to salvage a bad argument.) |
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| ===Early conceptions of God===
| | {{:Question: Did Joseph began his prophetic career with a "trinitarian" idea of God?}} |
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| {{main|Joseph Smith's early conception of God}} | |
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| Critics who wish to claim that in the 1830s Joseph Smith had only a vaguely "trinitarian" idea of God (and so would see the Father and the Son as only one being) have missed vital evidence which cannot be ignored.
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| ====1829====
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| The Book of Mormon (translated in 1829) contains numerous passages which teach a physical separation and embodiment (even if only in ''spirit'' bodies, which are clearly not immaterial, but have shape, position, and form) of the members of the Godhead. (See: {{s|3|Nephi|11||}}, {{s|1|Nephi|11|1-11}}, {{s||Ether|3|14-18}}.)
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| ====1830====
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| Between June and October 1830, Joseph had dictated his revision (the "Joseph Smith Translation") to Genesis. Joseph rendered {{b||Genesis|1|26|27}} as:
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| :And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so....And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them. ({{s||Moses|2|26-27}}.)
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| There can be no doubt that Joseph understood "in mine own image" to refer to a physical likeness, rather than merely a moral or intellectual one. The JST of {{b||Genesis|5|1-2}} read:
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| :In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; ''in the image of his own body'', male and female, created he them ({{s||Moses|6|8-9}}; emphasis added).
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| Thus, by 1830 Joseph was clearly teaching a separation of the Father and Son, and insisting that both had some type of physical form which could be copied in the creation of humanity.
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| Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, also noted that other Christian denominations took issue with the new Church because of its teachings about God:
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| :"the different denominations are very much opposed to us.... The Methodists also come, and they rage, for they worship a God without body or parts, and they know that our faith comes in contact with this principle." <ref>{{LucyMackSmith-Nibley1|start=161}}</ref>
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| In February 1831 a non-Mormon writer noted that in November 1830 LDS missionaries were teaching that Joseph Smith claimed to have received "a commission from God," and they also said that Joseph "had seen God frequently and personally." <ref>''The Reflector'', 2/13 (14 February 1831). [Palmyra, New York]</ref> That the Prophet's enemies knew he claimed to have "seen God," indicates that the doctrine of an embodied God that could be seen was well-known early on.
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| ====1831====
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| On 4 June 1831 Joseph Smith met in Kirtland, Ohio with a group of Elders and after blessing Lyman Wight with "the visions of heaven" and the ability to "see the Lord" he said, "I now see God, and Jesus Christ at his right hand. Let them kill me, I should not feel death as I am now." (Levi Hancock, autobiography, BYU Special Collections, 33).
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| ====1832====
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| On 16 February 1832 Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon received a visionary revelation of the three degrees of glory in the same year that Joseph wrote his earliest-known First Vision account. The 'three degrees' vision clearly teaches a physical separation of the Father and Son, bearing witness of seeing both of them, side by side (see {{s||DC|76|14,20–24}}.) <ref>The current D&C 76 vision was first published in ''Evening and Morning Star'', Independence, Missouri, July 1832.</ref>
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| John Whitmer would also write in 1831 of a vision enjoyed by Joseph in which Joseph saw Christ as separate from the Father, for he "saw the heavens opened, and the Son of Man ''sitting on the right hand of the Father'' making intercession for his brethren, the Saints." <ref>F. Mark McKiernan, ''An Early Latter-day Saint History: The Book of John Whitmer'' (Independence, MO.: Herald Publishing House 1980), 67, punctuation corrected; cited in {{BYUS1|author=Robert L. Millet|article=Joseph Smith and Modern Mormonism: Orthodoxy, Neoorthodoxy, Tension, and Tradition|vol=29|date=Summer 1989|num=3|start=49–68}} {{pdflink|url=http://byustudies.byu.edu/Products/MoreInfoPage/MoreInfo.aspx?prodid=1192&type=7&zoom_highlight=%22Joseph+Smith+and+Modern+Mormonism%22}} {{ea}}</ref> Of this same experience, Levi Hancock wrote: "Joseph Smith then stepped out onto the floor and said, 'I now see God, and Jesus Christ ''at his right hand'', let them kill me, I should not feel death as I am now.'" <ref>as cited in Millet, "Joseph Smith and Modern Mormonism," footnote 12. {{ea}}</ref>
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| ====1832–1833====
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| Two of Joseph's close associates reported their own visions of God in the winter of 1832–1833. Both are decidedly not in the trinitarian mold.
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| Zebedee Coltrin:
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| :"Joseph having given instructions, and while engaged in silent prayer, kneeling...a personage walked through the room from East to west, and Joseph asked if we saw him. I saw him and suppose the others did, and Joseph answered that this was Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother. Afterward Joseph told us to resume our former position in prayer, which we did. Another person came through; He was surrounded as with a flame of fire. [I] experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great brightness. The Prophet Joseph said this was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I saw him....
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| :He was surrounded as with a flame of fire, which was so brilliant that I could not discover anything else but his person. I saw his hands, his legs, his feet, his eyes, nose, mouth, head and body in the shape and form of a perfect man. He sat in a chair as a man would sit in a chair, but This appearance was so grand and overwhelming that it seemed that I should melt down in His presence, and the sensation was so powerful that it thrilled through my whole system and I felt it in the marrow of my bones. The Prophet Joseph said: 'Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son and know that They exist and that They are two separate personages.'" <ref>3 October 1883, ''Salt Lake School of the Prophets Minute Book 1883'' (Palm Desert, California: ULC Press, 1981), 39; cited in Paulsen, 34.</ref>
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| John Murdock:
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| :"During the winter that I boarded with Bro[ther] Joseph... we had a number of prayer meetings, in the Prophet’s chamber.... In one of those meetings the Prophet told us if we could humble ourselves before God, and exersise [sic] strong faith, we should see the face of the Lord. And about midday the visions of my mind were opened, and the eyes of my understanding were enlightened, and I saw the form of a man, most lovely, the visage of his face was sound and fair as the sun. His hair a bright silver grey, curled in a most majestic form, His eyes a keen penetrating blue, and the skin of his neck a most beautiful white and he was covered from the neck to the feet with a loose garment, pure white, whiter than any garment I had ever before seen. His countenance was the most penetrating, and yet most lovely. And while I was endeavoring to comprehend the whole personage from head to feet it slipped from me, and the vision was closed up. But it left on my mind the impression of love, for months, that I never felt before to that degree." <ref>An Abridged Record of the Life of John Murdock Taken From His Journal by Himself," (typescript) Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, 13; cited in Paulsen, 35.</ref>
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| ====Before 1836====
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| Truman Coe, a Presbyterian minister, lived in Kirtland for four years (1832–1836). He described LDS beliefs:
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| :[The Mormons] contend that the God worshipped by the Presbyterians and all other sectarians is no better than a wooden god. They believe that the true God is a material being, composed of body and parts; and that when the Creator formed Adam in his own image, he made him about the size and shape of God himself. <ref>{{BYUS|author=Milton V. Backman, Jr.|article=Truman Coe's 1836 Description of Mormonism|vol=17|num=3|date=1977|start=347|end=350, 354}}{{pdflink|url=http://byustudies.byu.edu/Products/MoreInfoPage/MoreInfo.aspx?Type=7&ProdID=560}}</ref>
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| ====Evidence that is absent====
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| In addition to all the non-trinitarian evidence above, as Milton Backman has noted, there is a great deal of evidence that we should find, but don't. For example, no one has
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| :located a publication (such as an article appearing in a church periodical or statement from a missionary pamphlet) written by an active Latter-day Saint prior to the martyrdom of the Prophet that defends the traditional or popular creedal concept of the Trinity. . . .
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| :Moreover, there are no references in critical writings of the 1830s (including statements by apostates) that Joseph Smith introduced in the mid-thirties the doctrine of separateness of the Father and Son. <ref>Milton V. Backman, Jr., "Joseph Smith's First Vision: Cornerstone of a Latter-day Faith," in ''To Be Learned is Good, If ...'', ed. Robert L. Millet (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1987),; cited in Millet, "Joseph Smith and Modern Mormonism," 59.</ref>
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| ====Other Lecture evidence====
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| As noted above, "catchecism" section of Lecture 5 also contains the following:
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| :How many personages are there in the Godhead[?]
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| :Two: the Father and Son.
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| Thus, even the Lecture in question saw the Father and Son as separate personages. The role of the Holy Ghost was less clear at this point in time; the same catechism describes the "Only Begotten of the Father possessing the same mind with the Father, ''which mind is the Holy Spirit''" (emphasis added).
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| The exact nature of the relationship between the Spirit and the Father and the Son was not explicitly stated until 1843:
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| :The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.{{s||DC|130|22}}
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| Thus, the Lectures did not have a trinitarian view of God—the Father and the Son were clearly distinct personages, united in mind by the Holy Spirit.
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| ===Possible Interpretations=== | | ===Possible Interpretations=== |