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Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Mormonism 101/Chapter 3: Difference between revisions

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*Let's have a look at President Hinckley's words, as quoted by the authors:
*Let's have a look at President Hinckley's words, as quoted by the authors:
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord's Prayer? How could He have met with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being. {{ref|churchnews}}
The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord's Prayer? How could He have met with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being.<ref>''Church News'' (4 July 1998): 2, quoted in {{CriticalWork:McKeever and Johnson:Mormonism 101|pages=52}}</ref>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
*These words, to the authors, are antithetical to the biblical message. Let's take it one by one. What does President Hinckley reject in his message? It is the numerical oneness and identity of the Father with the Son and the Holy Ghost. Nothing more, nothing less. If we are to believe the authors, the doctrine of the Trinity is just that: In uttering the Lord's prayer, Jesus prayed to Himself, on the Mount of Transfiguration, He met Himself. To suggest otherwise is to reject the biblical message.
*These words, to the authors, are antithetical to the biblical message. Let's take it one by one. What does President Hinckley reject in his message? It is the numerical oneness and identity of the Father with the Son and the Holy Ghost. Nothing more, nothing less. If we are to believe the authors, the doctrine of the Trinity is just that: In uttering the Lord's prayer, Jesus prayed to Himself, on the Mount of Transfiguration, He met Himself. To suggest otherwise is to reject the biblical message.
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*Let's look back in Christian history, to the Epistle to Diognetus. The author, usually called Mathetes, writes:
*Let's look back in Christian history, to the Epistle to Diognetus. The author, usually called Mathetes, writes:
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
"This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God." {{ref|dio}}
"This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God."<ref>Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, "To Diognetus," The Anti-Nicene Church Fathers (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1867), [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05008b.htm Chapter VII]. This beautiful little apology for Christianity is cited by no ancient or medieval writer, and came down to us in a single manuscript, which perished in the siege of Strasburg (1870). The identification of Diognetus with the teacher of Marcus Aurelius, who bore the same name, is at most plausible. The author's name is unknown, and the date is anywhere between the Apostles and the age of Constantine. It was clearly composed during a severe persecution. The manuscript attributed it with other writings to Justin Martyr; but that earnest philosopher and hasty writer was quite incapable of the restrained eloquence, the smooth flow of thought, the limpid clearness of expression, which mark this epistle as one of the most perfect compositions of antiquity. The author was possibly a catechumen of St. Paul or of one of the apostle's associates.</ref>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
*In the words above there is a clear definition of how the Son is God, and how the father: As a king sends his son, who is also a king. In this very old document there is no hint that would invalidate Widtsoe's words, in fact, they fit better than Psychological Trinity. Let's continue to Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with a Jew.
*In the words above there is a clear definition of how the Son is God, and how the father: As a king sends his son, who is also a king. In this very old document there is no hint that would invalidate Widtsoe's words, in fact, they fit better than Psychological Trinity. Let's continue to Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with a Jew.
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things-above whom there is no other God-wishes to announce to them." {{ref|trypho}}
Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things-above whom there is no other God-wishes to announce to them."<ref>Roberts and Donaldson, "Dialogue of Justin with Trypho," The Anti-Nicene Church Fathers, Chapter LVI.</ref>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
*So Justin calls Jesus "another God and Lord." If we then can talk of a "god distinct from the Father," are we not right in saying they are two gods?
*So Justin calls Jesus "another God and Lord." If we then can talk of a "god distinct from the Father," are we not right in saying they are two gods?
*The best explanation so far stems from Gregory of Nyssa in his essay "On Not Three Gods." {{ref|nyssa}} He reasons that the unity of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost lies primarily in their nature. Just as there is only one human nature of which every human being is a representative, there is only one divine nature of which every person of the Godhead is a representative. {{ref|nyssa2}} Widtsoe especially mentions that the three personages are united in nature. LDS doctrine is in harmony with this statement of Gregory. As Gregory's argument goes on, it is an abuse of language to talk about "three gods," as it is an abuse of language to talk about "many men." He admits that it is the way people talk, but insists that it is wrong. I think, if we may talk about "two men," it is reasonable to abuse language the same way saying "three gods." Now, most people would find it strange if we refused to talk about "two men," because this is the custom, and if we want to be understood, we better use language as everyone else does. Therefore it is justified from this to say, "In the holy Trinity there are three gods." Gregory admits the weakness of his argument and then finds a very strong reason why that which is OK for the lower nature of man is totally wrong for the higher nature of God: They work together, and they are revealed together (Wirk- und Offenbarungseinheit). It is important to note, that this is how the LDS view the unity of the Godhead, too: One in purpose, one in action, one in revelation. This, according to Gregory, is the major reason why we should say there is one God, and not three. {{ref|gregory}} This is the only real argument that Gregory can think of, why it is wrong to talk of three Gods: They do not work separated from each other.
*The best explanation so far stems from Gregory of Nyssa in his essay "On Not Three Gods."<ref>Gregory of Nyssa, "On 'Not three Gods'," A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Church, Volume V, edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace (New York: Publisher Unknown, 1887).</ref> He reasons that the unity of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost lies primarily in their nature. Just as there is only one human nature of which every human being is a representative, there is only one divine nature of which every person of the Godhead is a representative.<ref>Ibid., by Gregory of Nyssa: "What, then, is the reason that when we count one by one those who are exhibited to us in one nature, we ordinarily name them in the plural and speak of 'so many men,' instead of calling them all one: while in the case of the Divine nature our doctrinal definition rejects the plurality of Gods, at once enumerating the Persons, and at the same time not admitting the plural signification?[...]"We say, then, to begin with, that the practice of calling those who are not divided in nature by the very name of their common nature in the plural, and saying they are 'many men,' is a customary abuse of language, and that it would be much the same thing to say they are 'many human natures.'[...]"Thus it would be much better to correct our erroneous habit, so as no longer to extend to a plurality the name of the nature, than by our bondage to habit to transfer to our statements concerning God the error which exists in the above case. But since the correction of the habit is impracticable (for how could you persuade any one not to speak of those who are exhibited in the same nature as 'many men?'-indeed, in every case habit is a thing hard to change), we are not so far wrong in not going contrary to the prevailing habit in the case of the lower nature, since no harm results from the mistaken use of the name: but in the case of the statement concerning the Divine nature the various use of terms is no longer so free from danger: for that which is of small account is in these subjects no longer a small matter.[...]"If, indeed, Godhead were an appellation of nature, it would be more proper, according to the argument laid down, to include the Three Persons in the singular number, and to speak of 'One God,' by reason of the inseparability and indivisibility of the nature: but since it has been established by what has been said, that the term 'Godhead' is significant of operation, and not of nature, the argument from what has been advanced seems to turn to the contrary conclusion, that we ought therefore all the more to call those 'three Gods' who are contemplated in the same operation, as they say that one would speak of 'three philosophers' or 'orators,' or any other name derived from a business when those who take part in the same business are more than one."</ref> Widtsoe especially mentions that the three personages are united in nature. LDS doctrine is in harmony with this statement of Gregory. As Gregory's argument goes on, it is an abuse of language to talk about "three gods," as it is an abuse of language to talk about "many men." He admits that it is the way people talk, but insists that it is wrong. I think, if we may talk about "two men," it is reasonable to abuse language the same way saying "three gods." Now, most people would find it strange if we refused to talk about "two men," because this is the custom, and if we want to be understood, we better use language as everyone else does. Therefore it is justified from this to say, "In the holy Trinity there are three gods." Gregory admits the weakness of his argument and then finds a very strong reason why that which is OK for the lower nature of man is totally wrong for the higher nature of God: They work together, and they are revealed together (Wirk- und Offenbarungseinheit). It is important to note, that this is how the LDS view the unity of the Godhead, too: One in purpose, one in action, one in revelation. This, according to Gregory, is the major reason why we should say there is one God, and not three.<ref>Gregory states: "For instance, supposing the case of several rhetoricians, their pursuit, being one, has the same name in the numerous cases: but each of those who follow it works by himself, this one pleading on his own account, and that on his own account. Thus, since among men the action of each in the same pursuits is discriminated, they are properly called many, since each of them is separated from the others within his own environment, according to the special character of his operation. But in the case of the Divine nature we do not similarly learn that the Father does anything by Himself in which the Son does not work conjointly, or again that the Son has any special operation apart from the Holy Spirit; but every operation which extends from God to the Creation, and is named according to our variable conceptions of it, has its origin from the Father, and proceeds through the Son, and is perfected in the Holy Spirit. For this reason the name derived from the operation is not divided with regard to the number of those who fulfil it, because the action of each concerning anything is not separate and peculiar, but whatever comes to pass, in reference either to the acts of His providence for us, or to the government and constitution of the universe, comes to pass by the action of the Three, yet what does come to pass is not three things. We may understand the meaning of this from one single instance. From Him, I say, Who is the chief source of gifts, all things which have shared in this grace have obtained their life. When we inquire, then, whence this good gift came to us, we find by the guidance of the Scriptures that it was from the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yet although we set forth Three Persons and three names, we do not consider that we have had bestowed upon us three lives, one from each Person separately; but the same life is wrought in us by the Father, and prepared by the Son, and depends on the will of the Holy Spirit. Since then the Holy Trinity fulfils every operation in a manner similar to that of which I have spoken, not by separate action according to the number of the Persons, but so that there is one motion and disposition of the good will which is communicated from the Father through the Son to the Spirit (for as we do not call those whose operation gives one life three Givers of life, neither do we call those who are contemplated in one goodness three Good beings, nor speak of them in the plural by any of their other attributes); so neither can we call those who exercise this Divine and superintending power and operation towards ourselves and all creation, conjointly and inseparably, by their mutual action, three Gods."</ref> This is the only real argument that Gregory can think of, why it is wrong to talk of three Gods: They do not work separated from each other.
*In our modern industries another example springs to mind: The example of three workers in a plant. They work together on the same thing, let's say a lamp. They are workers, they work together, and the outcome is not three objects, but one. Applying Gregory's logic here would necessitate that we talk of "one worker in three persons." One might say, "But the workers work differently on the one object!" Well, this is surely also true for the example that Gregory gives. Read it in his own words:
*In our modern industries another example springs to mind: The example of three workers in a plant. They work together on the same thing, let's say a lamp. They are workers, they work together, and the outcome is not three objects, but one. Applying Gregory's logic here would necessitate that we talk of "one worker in three persons." One might say, "But the workers work differently on the one object!" Well, this is surely also true for the example that Gregory gives. Read it in his own words:
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
But the same life is wrought in us by the Father, and prepared by the Son, and depends on the will of the Holy Spirit. {{ref|nyssa3}}
But the same life is wrought in us by the Father, and prepared by the Son, and depends on the will of the Holy Spirit.<ref>Gregory of Nyssa, "On 'Not three Gods'."</ref>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
*Further one should think about the crucifixion of Christ. God the Son hangs on the cross. He does the greatest deed of God, the Atonement. He bears all our sins. He suffers. Surely He exercises His divine nature in divine grace. It is a divine operation for sure. Still he cries out "My God, my God, why hast thou left me?" If the Father left Him alone, then it is plain that Christ alone effected this divine action. He did it alone! The Father planned it, the Father sent the Son to do it, but it was the Son alone who did it.
*Further one should think about the crucifixion of Christ. God the Son hangs on the cross. He does the greatest deed of God, the Atonement. He bears all our sins. He suffers. Surely He exercises His divine nature in divine grace. It is a divine operation for sure. Still he cries out "My God, my God, why hast thou left me?" If the Father left Him alone, then it is plain that Christ alone effected this divine action. He did it alone! The Father planned it, the Father sent the Son to do it, but it was the Son alone who did it.
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=={{Endnotes label}}==
== ==
#{{note|churchnews}}Church News, 4 July 1998, 2, quoted in Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson, Mormonism 101 (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 2000), 52.
{{Endnotes label}}
#{{note|dio}}Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, "To Diognetus," The Anti-Nicene Church Fathers (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1867), Chapter VII. This beautiful little apology for Christianity is cited by no ancient or medieval writer, and came down to us in a single manuscript, which perished in the siege of Strasburg (1870). The identification of Diognetus with the teacher of Marcus Aurelius, who bore the same name, is at most plausible. The author's name is unknown, and the date is anywhere between the Apostles and the age of Constantine. It was clearly composed during a severe persecution. The manuscript attributed it with other writings to Justin Martyr; but that earnest philosopher and hasty writer was quite incapable of the restrained eloquence, the smooth flow of thought, the limpid clearness of expression, which mark this epistle as one of the most perfect compositions of antiquity. The author was possibly a catechumen of St. Paul or of one of the apostle's associates. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05008b.htm)
<references />
#{{note|trypho}}Roberts and Donaldson, "Dialogue of Justin with Trypho," The Anti-Nicene Church Fathers, Chapter LVI.
 
#{{note|nyssa}}Gregory of Nyssa, "On 'Not three Gods'," A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Church, Volume V, edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace (New York: Publisher Unknown, 1887).
#{{note|nyssa2}}Ibid., by Gregory of Nyssa: "What, then, is the reason that when we count one by one those who are exhibited to us in one nature, we ordinarily name them in the plural and speak of 'so many men,' instead of calling them all one: while in the case of the Divine nature our doctrinal definition rejects the plurality of Gods, at once enumerating the Persons, and at the same time not admitting the plural signification?[...]"We say, then, to begin with, that the practice of calling those who are not divided in nature by the very name of their common nature in the plural, and saying they are 'many men,' is a customary abuse of language, and that it would be much the same thing to say they are 'many human natures.'[...]"Thus it would be much better to correct our erroneous habit, so as no longer to extend to a plurality the name of the nature, than by our bondage to habit to transfer to our statements concerning God the error which exists in the above case. But since the correction of the habit is impracticable (for how could you persuade any one not to speak of those who are exhibited in the same nature as 'many men?'-indeed, in every case habit is a thing hard to change), we are not so far wrong in not going contrary to the prevailing habit in the case of the lower nature, since no harm results from the mistaken use of the name: but in the case of the statement concerning the Divine nature the various use of terms is no longer so free from danger: for that which is of small account is in these subjects no longer a small matter.[...]"If, indeed, Godhead were an appellation of nature, it would be more proper, according to the argument laid down, to include the Three Persons in the singular number, and to speak of 'One God,' by reason of the inseparability and indivisibility of the nature: but since it has been established by what has been said, that the term 'Godhead' is significant of operation, and not of nature, the argument from what has been advanced seems to turn to the contrary conclusion, that we ought therefore all the more to call those 'three Gods' who are contemplated in the same operation, as they say that one would speak of 'three philosophers' or 'orators,' or any other name derived from a business when those who take part in the same business are more than one."
#{{note|gregory}}Gregory states: "For instance, supposing the case of several rhetoricians, their pursuit, being one, has the same name in the numerous cases: but each of those who follow it works by himself, this one pleading on his own account, and that on his own account. Thus, since among men the action of each in the same pursuits is discriminated, they are properly called many, since each of them is separated from the others within his own environment, according to the special character of his operation. But in the case of the Divine nature we do not similarly learn that the Father does anything by Himself in which the Son does not work conjointly, or again that the Son has any special operation apart from the Holy Spirit; but every operation which extends from God to the Creation, and is named according to our variable conceptions of it, has its origin from the Father, and proceeds through the Son, and is perfected in the Holy Spirit. For this reason the name derived from the operation is not divided with regard to the number of those who fulfil it, because the action of each concerning anything is not separate and peculiar, but whatever comes to pass, in reference either to the acts of His providence for us, or to the government and constitution of the universe, comes to pass by the action of the Three, yet what does come to pass is not three things. We may understand the meaning of this from one single instance. From Him, I say, Who is the chief source of gifts, all things which have shared in this grace have obtained their life. When we inquire, then, whence this good gift came to us, we find by the guidance of the Scriptures that it was from the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yet although we set forth Three Persons and three names, we do not consider that we have had bestowed upon us three lives, one from each Person separately; but the same life is wrought in us by the Father, and prepared by the Son, and depends on the will of the Holy Spirit. Since then the Holy Trinity fulfils every operation in a manner similar to that of which I have spoken, not by separate action according to the number of the Persons, but so that there is one motion and disposition of the good will which is communicated from the Father through the Son to the Spirit (for as we do not call those whose operation gives one life three Givers of life, neither do we call those who are contemplated in one goodness three Good beings, nor speak of them in the plural by any of their other attributes); so neither can we call those who exercise this Divine and superintending power and operation towards ourselves and all creation, conjointly and inseparably, by their mutual action, three Gods."
#{{note|nyssa3}}Gregory of Nyssa, "On 'Not three Gods'."


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[[fr:Specific works/Mormonism 101/Index/Chapter 3]]
[[fr:Specific works/Mormonism 101/Index/Chapter 3]]

Revision as of 03:00, 10 June 2014

Response to claims made in "Chapter 3: The Trinity"


Chapter 2: Jesus
A FAIR Analysis of:
Mormonism 101
A work by author: Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson
 Chapter 4: Preexistence and the Second Estate

51

Claim
  • The authors quote John A. Widtsoe,

Several church councils, in which men fought for their own theories, foisted upon the Church the incomprehensible and unnatural doctrine of "one in three and three in one." ...This false doctrine, which has been nurtured through the centuries, is an excellent illustration of philosophical-theological error and nonsense.

Author's source(s)

  • John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations 1:58

Response

  • Let's look at the Widtsoe quote in context. As is always advisable when examining critical literature, it is best to fill in the portions omitted by the authors:

In numerous references in the Book of Mormon, the members of the Godhead stand out as distinct personages. The Bible, if read fully and intelligently, teaches that the Holy Trinity is composed of individual Gods.

The early Christian Church, on its way to apostasy, departed from this truth. Several church councils, in which men fought for their own theories, foisted upon the Church the incomprehensible and unnatural doctrine of "one in three and three in one." They twisted the doctrine of unity of nature and of purpose among the Trinity into an oneness of personality. They would quote Jesus' prayer to his Father, that his disciples "may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us." (John 17:21) Yet at the same time they ignored the clear evidence in the prayer that Jesus was on earth, at that time, speaking to a Being elsewhere; and the equally clear meaning of the prayer that he did not propose that his disciples should be fused into one personage, but that they should be of one mind with him and his Father. This false doctrine, which has been nurtured through the centuries, is an excellent illustration of philosophical-theological error and nonsense.

Latter-day Saints prefer to cling to the revealed word, and to read the word of God intelligently. Only that which we can understand can be used safely by mortal men; that which is incomprehensible is useless to us.

  • What does this quote tell about LDS doctrine, and what about the rejection of the concept of the Trinity?
  1. The "Trinity" was accepted as "Holy" by Widtsoe. It is a term that has revered place in LDS theology. It is said to be taught in the Bible. Therefore "Trinity" has not been attacked by the LDS, nor slandered, but the understanding of the Trinity is different, and those different understandings are attacked.
  2. There are three distinct personages in the Trinity.
  3. The three personages are one in nature and purpose.
  4. The oneness of personality is rejected.
  • So, basically it is modalism that is rejected, namely the same modalism that, though not official doctrine of Christian Churches, is believed by the majority of Christian believers.
  • Further, just as the Eastern Orthodox Christians, the Psychological Trinity with its only distinction of personages lying in the different relations between the fathership, the sonship and the exhalation, is seen as a modalistic variance, and therefore rejected.
  • If one wants to find fault with Widtsoe in this, it is only that he knew not enough about the Psychological Trinity to formulate his rejection more fittingly. He primarily attacks what he has been told about the Latin Trinity by its professors. And, as Trobisch said, most of those do not know what the traditional Trinity is about.
  • A Protestant Christian might also find fault with the expression: "The Bible, if read fully and intelligently, teaches that the Holy Trinity is composed of individual Gods."
  • Just as many traditional Christians err when saying "Father, Son and God are one person," the expression "the Trinity is composed of individual Gods" might be not entirely correct, but it is not wrong either.
  • For a detailed response, see: Nature of God/Godhead and the Trinity


51-52

Claim
  • The authors claim that "Mormon leaders" have "mocked and slandered" the concept of the Trinity despite it being "the heart and soul of Christian theology."

Author's source(s)
  • Larry Dahl, "The Morning Breaks, The Shadows Flee," Ensign (April 1997) 14-15.
  • Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370, 372.
  • Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, vol. 1, 117-118.
  • Gordon B. Hinckley, Church News, 4 July 1998, 2.
Response
  • The authors of Mormonism 101 have reduced quotes to change their meaning. Had they provided the full context of the quotes by Widtsoe and Smith, the reader would have seen that they reject modalism and semi-modalism and focus on the three persons of the Trinity.
  • Both McConkie and Hinckley reject the notion of the numeric oneness of the three divine Persons. The thrust of the LDS argument against the modalism of lay Christians and the semi-modalism of Latin Trinity has not changed since Joseph Smith.
  • Let's have a look at President Hinckley's words, as quoted by the authors:

The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord's Prayer? How could He have met with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being.[1]

  • These words, to the authors, are antithetical to the biblical message. Let's take it one by one. What does President Hinckley reject in his message? It is the numerical oneness and identity of the Father with the Son and the Holy Ghost. Nothing more, nothing less. If we are to believe the authors, the doctrine of the Trinity is just that: In uttering the Lord's prayer, Jesus prayed to Himself, on the Mount of Transfiguration, He met Himself. To suggest otherwise is to reject the biblical message.
  • We have already seen that this is not what even the Psychological Trinity is about. The authors proved what Trobisch said: Most lay Christians don't understand the Trinity, and it takes more to get a glimpse of what the Trinity is about than just having a Masters in Divinity.
  • For a detailed response, see: Nature of God/Godhead and the Trinity


One God

53

Claim
  • The Bible "declares that there is only one God."

Author's source(s)
Response

Claim
  • The commandment "Thou shalt have not other gods before me" it interpreted by the authors to mean that "one is not to even believe that there are other gods."

Author's source(s)
Response

Claim
  • The authors continue quoting scriptures:

This certainly is a superficial interpretation, for many passages show this oneness far surpasses the mere notion of agreement. For example, the Ten Commandments strongly warn, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exod. 20:3). The Mormon may insist his worship does not extend beyond the one he calls Elohim, but context demands that this must also involve his faith (he is not to even believe there are other Gods).


Response

  • Well, in fact there's nothing in Exodus 20 that claims that we should not believe that there are other gods. If that were the case, Deuteronomy 10:17, Joshua 22:22, Psalms 136:2, and Daniel 2:47 and 11:36 would be against that commandment. Or would McKeever and Johnson rather have us believe that these passages refer to God as "God of Idols," instead of "God of Gods?"


53-54

Claim
  • This leads us to the next interesting claim:

The Book of Isaiah offers perhaps more verses in defence of monotheism than any other. Throughout chapters 43 through 45, this book emphasizes the existence of one God and one God only (see Isa. 43: 10; 44:6; 45:5-6, 14, 21-22; 46:9). It is difficult to interpret passages such as Isaiah 43: 10 as merely referring to several Gods being one in purpose since it rejects the possibility of other gods existing either before or after the one true God. One would think that even the God of Mormonism would be aware of the many gods who allegedly exist with him, or for that matter, the god that begat his mortal body. Yet Isaiah 44:8 tells us that the God of the Bible doesn't even know of other gods! Are we to believe in the context of Mormonism that Joseph Smith's God can't remember who his own father was?


Response

  • That's a really interesting question, but let's redirect it back to the authors: If the Father and the Son are one being, how can Jesus say:

Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.34

  • Jesus really used unambiguous words to proclaim that God not only was God to his disciples, but Jesus' God, too.
  • Let's continue to Paul. Galatians 3:19-20 talks about mediatorship and then tells us "Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one."35 So, if there's a mediator, there have to be two parties, and the mediator is not party himself. Hebrews 9:15 calls Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant. Those two scriptures form a nice contradiction to McKeever and Johnson's oneness claims, which I don't think they can resolve. Every scripture they threw at us brings them into either rejecting their own position or the New Testament testimony of Christ.
  • How, though, can the LDS reconcile their view with those scriptures in Isaiah? That's easy; you just have to take a look at Isaiah 44:6-8:

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? And the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].

  • The question here is: Who has revealed himself to the world? Which God has ever communicated with man? Who has revealed the future? Who but He who brought up this future? The answer is: None. There is no one, and neither the Israelites nor God knows any other god that had revealed himself but the God of Israel. Again, this says nothing about monotheism. It just talks about revelation, and wholeheartedly we recognize Isaiah's argument as valid.


54

Claim
  • The authors' main purpose seems to be to show that the LDS idea of deification is unbiblical, unchristian and untrue. They seem to think that this doctrine is the main reason why the LDS reject the Psychological Trinity. They write:

Why does the LDS Church reject the historic church's concept of the Trinity? Because not only does the Trinity remove any hope of a Mormon ever achieving godhood, but it also undermines Smith's first vision and subsequent teachings regarding a multiplicity of deities. If it can be demonstrated that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost/Spirit are God, and at the same time be shown that there exists only one God, it would definitely place the integrity of the first Mormon prophet on the line.


Response


Claim
  • The authors by their rejection of deification have-according to Vajda-proven the LDS teaching about the "Great Apostasy." Further, the above proves that either McKeever and Johnson are ignorant of the fully Christian doctrine of deification, or they ignore it wilfully to deceive their readers. Either way, they are dead wrong in the following assumption:

Why does the LDS Church reject the historic church's concept of the Trinity? Because not only does the Trinity remove any hope of a Mormon ever achieving godhood, but it also undermines Smith's first vision and subsequent teachings regarding a multiplicity of deities. If it can be demonstrated that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost/Spirit are God, and at the same time be shown that there exists only one God, it would definitely place the integrity of the first Mormon prophet on the line.24


Response

  • Neither the hope of achieving godhood, nor the First Vision are undermined by the Latin or the Greek Trinity. The most important argument Athanasius provided against the Arian teaching that Jesus was not really God was, "If he was not really god, how could he MAKE us gods? How should he be able to make us, what he himself is not?"25
  • It was the well-established doctrine of deification that made clear that Jesus was deus verus de deo vero (true god from true God), as the Nicene Creed states, and if not for deification, our Protestant brothers could well believe in Arianism now, because without that argument Athanasius may have lost the dispute. To claim that the LDS dislike the Latin and the Greek Trinity because of deification doctrine shows an absolute ignorance of the real facts of history and theology.
  • For a detailed response, see: Nature of God/Polytheism


54-55

Claim
  • Next, the authors try to beat us over the head with a quote from the Book of Mormon:

And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.36


Response

  • Let's understand the situation first. Zeezrom is a lawyer opposed to the Gospel. He tries to take Amulek into cross-examination. Every word Amulek says he tries to use against him. Would Zeezrom have understood a complex answer? Or would he have made a fool of Amulek? Would he have trampeled upon sacred beliefs? Anybody who has read that passage in Alma knows for sure that this was what Zeezrom intended. In giving a simple answer, even if it is not exact, Alma does not throw his pearls before the swine. There is, says Amulek, just one God. There's one, who is-as Origen puts it-Autotheos, God out of Himself. The Son is God by the will and power of the Father, and so is the Holy Ghost. He is the one that Christ references as "the only true God"37 and "my God."38
  • But what about monotheism? It is not in the Bible, it is not in the Book of Mormon, nor in the early Church Fathers. Why should we believe it? Does that mean that the LDS are Polytheists? Certainly not, because we only worship the Father in the name of the Son, through the Holy Ghost.39
  • Are the LDS Henotheists? Again, certainly not. Nobody on this world or in this universe may choose whom to worship if he wants life eternal. To look up to any other being than Jesus Christ to save us, or to pray to anybody else but the Father in the name of the Son and through the Holy Ghost, is the road to eternal death. There is no way but Jesus, no God but the Father, who leads us, who guides us, who saves us through Christ. Thus Henotheism is a weak term that does not describe our faith sufficiently.
  • We are left to Monotheism as the concept that comes closest to our beliefs, though it is nevertheless inadequate a term, and with the Bible proclaim that YHVH is the God of gods, the King of kings, the Lord of lords.


The Basis for the Trinity

56

Claim
  • The authors claim that "the Trinity was not an invention of the early church; rather, it was a definitive response designed to explain the biblical position of the church" and that "[c]lear, definitive statements like the nicene and Athanasian Creeds were apparently not necessary until orthodoxy was challenged in later years."

Author's source(s)
  • J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 89.
  • Brown, Heresies, 20.
Response
  • Let's look back in Christian history, to the Epistle to Diognetus. The author, usually called Mathetes, writes:

"This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God."[2]

  • In the words above there is a clear definition of how the Son is God, and how the father: As a king sends his son, who is also a king. In this very old document there is no hint that would invalidate Widtsoe's words, in fact, they fit better than Psychological Trinity. Let's continue to Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with a Jew.

Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things-above whom there is no other God-wishes to announce to them."[3]

  • So Justin calls Jesus "another God and Lord." If we then can talk of a "god distinct from the Father," are we not right in saying they are two gods?
  • The best explanation so far stems from Gregory of Nyssa in his essay "On Not Three Gods."[4] He reasons that the unity of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost lies primarily in their nature. Just as there is only one human nature of which every human being is a representative, there is only one divine nature of which every person of the Godhead is a representative.[5] Widtsoe especially mentions that the three personages are united in nature. LDS doctrine is in harmony with this statement of Gregory. As Gregory's argument goes on, it is an abuse of language to talk about "three gods," as it is an abuse of language to talk about "many men." He admits that it is the way people talk, but insists that it is wrong. I think, if we may talk about "two men," it is reasonable to abuse language the same way saying "three gods." Now, most people would find it strange if we refused to talk about "two men," because this is the custom, and if we want to be understood, we better use language as everyone else does. Therefore it is justified from this to say, "In the holy Trinity there are three gods." Gregory admits the weakness of his argument and then finds a very strong reason why that which is OK for the lower nature of man is totally wrong for the higher nature of God: They work together, and they are revealed together (Wirk- und Offenbarungseinheit). It is important to note, that this is how the LDS view the unity of the Godhead, too: One in purpose, one in action, one in revelation. This, according to Gregory, is the major reason why we should say there is one God, and not three.[6] This is the only real argument that Gregory can think of, why it is wrong to talk of three Gods: They do not work separated from each other.
  • In our modern industries another example springs to mind: The example of three workers in a plant. They work together on the same thing, let's say a lamp. They are workers, they work together, and the outcome is not three objects, but one. Applying Gregory's logic here would necessitate that we talk of "one worker in three persons." One might say, "But the workers work differently on the one object!" Well, this is surely also true for the example that Gregory gives. Read it in his own words:

But the same life is wrought in us by the Father, and prepared by the Son, and depends on the will of the Holy Spirit.[7]

  • Further one should think about the crucifixion of Christ. God the Son hangs on the cross. He does the greatest deed of God, the Atonement. He bears all our sins. He suffers. Surely He exercises His divine nature in divine grace. It is a divine operation for sure. Still he cries out "My God, my God, why hast thou left me?" If the Father left Him alone, then it is plain that Christ alone effected this divine action. He did it alone! The Father planned it, the Father sent the Son to do it, but it was the Son alone who did it.
  • So, from common usage and from Gregory's argument, and also from the writings of other Early Church Fathers we see that it is fully correct and Christian to talk about a plurality of gods in the Trinity.
  • For a detailed response, see: Nature of God/Godhead and the Trinity


==

Answer

==

57

Claim
  • The authors summarize this chapter as follows:
  • Mormons believe that the Trinity was "an invention of the apostate church," while Christianity believes it is "a doctrine that came from biblical origins."
  • Mormons believe that the Trinity "cannot be true because it cannot be understood," while Chritianity believes it "is one of the things about God that is not able to be understood by a finite, created mind."
  • Mormons believe that the Trinity "cannot be true because the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are merely one in purpose," while Christianity believes it "is true because there is one God by nature who is evident in three persons."


Response

  • What do most lay Christians believe in when talking about the Trinity? Clearly, many believe in some kind of modalism. Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not true personages, but only masks, modes of God's being . The one God reveals Himself to us in three modes: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. These believers often profess: "The Father, Son and Ghost are one person."
  • Others rather firmly hold to the belief that the three are distinct persons, with three centers of willpower, each having a personal history. But they are, among those that believe in the Trinity, a minority. A Catholic religious teacher once explained:
    • Father <> Son;
    • Father <> Holy Ghost;
    • Son <> Holy Ghost.
    • Father = God;
    • Son = God;
    • Holy Ghost = God.
  • That's the Trinity. It is mathematically wrong, and what makes it right is the mystery of faith. The informed reader will know that there are differences in beliefs about the Trinity. What Protestants and Catholics are proud to believe, namely the Psychological Trinity is an abomination for the second great old denomination of Christianity, namely Orthodoxy.


Witnessing Tip: Who Is God?

58

Claim
  • In their hypothetical exchange between a "Christian" and a "Mormon," the authors state the following:

Christian: "Would you say that there was a God before Elohim (God the Father)? Mormon: Yes, that has been taught. Christian: Could we use the Bible to see if this is true? Mormon: Sure

Author's source(s)

Response


Notes

  1. ↑ Church News (4 July 1998): 2, quoted in Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson, Mormonism 101. Examining the Religion of the Latter-day Saints (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 2000), 52. ( Index of claims )
  2. ↑ Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, "To Diognetus," The Anti-Nicene Church Fathers (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1867), Chapter VII. This beautiful little apology for Christianity is cited by no ancient or medieval writer, and came down to us in a single manuscript, which perished in the siege of Strasburg (1870). The identification of Diognetus with the teacher of Marcus Aurelius, who bore the same name, is at most plausible. The author's name is unknown, and the date is anywhere between the Apostles and the age of Constantine. It was clearly composed during a severe persecution. The manuscript attributed it with other writings to Justin Martyr; but that earnest philosopher and hasty writer was quite incapable of the restrained eloquence, the smooth flow of thought, the limpid clearness of expression, which mark this epistle as one of the most perfect compositions of antiquity. The author was possibly a catechumen of St. Paul or of one of the apostle's associates.
  3. ↑ Roberts and Donaldson, "Dialogue of Justin with Trypho," The Anti-Nicene Church Fathers, Chapter LVI.
  4. ↑ Gregory of Nyssa, "On 'Not three Gods'," A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Church, Volume V, edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace (New York: Publisher Unknown, 1887).
  5. ↑ Ibid., by Gregory of Nyssa: "What, then, is the reason that when we count one by one those who are exhibited to us in one nature, we ordinarily name them in the plural and speak of 'so many men,' instead of calling them all one: while in the case of the Divine nature our doctrinal definition rejects the plurality of Gods, at once enumerating the Persons, and at the same time not admitting the plural signification?[...]"We say, then, to begin with, that the practice of calling those who are not divided in nature by the very name of their common nature in the plural, and saying they are 'many men,' is a customary abuse of language, and that it would be much the same thing to say they are 'many human natures.'[...]"Thus it would be much better to correct our erroneous habit, so as no longer to extend to a plurality the name of the nature, than by our bondage to habit to transfer to our statements concerning God the error which exists in the above case. But since the correction of the habit is impracticable (for how could you persuade any one not to speak of those who are exhibited in the same nature as 'many men?'-indeed, in every case habit is a thing hard to change), we are not so far wrong in not going contrary to the prevailing habit in the case of the lower nature, since no harm results from the mistaken use of the name: but in the case of the statement concerning the Divine nature the various use of terms is no longer so free from danger: for that which is of small account is in these subjects no longer a small matter.[...]"If, indeed, Godhead were an appellation of nature, it would be more proper, according to the argument laid down, to include the Three Persons in the singular number, and to speak of 'One God,' by reason of the inseparability and indivisibility of the nature: but since it has been established by what has been said, that the term 'Godhead' is significant of operation, and not of nature, the argument from what has been advanced seems to turn to the contrary conclusion, that we ought therefore all the more to call those 'three Gods' who are contemplated in the same operation, as they say that one would speak of 'three philosophers' or 'orators,' or any other name derived from a business when those who take part in the same business are more than one."
  6. ↑ Gregory states: "For instance, supposing the case of several rhetoricians, their pursuit, being one, has the same name in the numerous cases: but each of those who follow it works by himself, this one pleading on his own account, and that on his own account. Thus, since among men the action of each in the same pursuits is discriminated, they are properly called many, since each of them is separated from the others within his own environment, according to the special character of his operation. But in the case of the Divine nature we do not similarly learn that the Father does anything by Himself in which the Son does not work conjointly, or again that the Son has any special operation apart from the Holy Spirit; but every operation which extends from God to the Creation, and is named according to our variable conceptions of it, has its origin from the Father, and proceeds through the Son, and is perfected in the Holy Spirit. For this reason the name derived from the operation is not divided with regard to the number of those who fulfil it, because the action of each concerning anything is not separate and peculiar, but whatever comes to pass, in reference either to the acts of His providence for us, or to the government and constitution of the universe, comes to pass by the action of the Three, yet what does come to pass is not three things. We may understand the meaning of this from one single instance. From Him, I say, Who is the chief source of gifts, all things which have shared in this grace have obtained their life. When we inquire, then, whence this good gift came to us, we find by the guidance of the Scriptures that it was from the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yet although we set forth Three Persons and three names, we do not consider that we have had bestowed upon us three lives, one from each Person separately; but the same life is wrought in us by the Father, and prepared by the Son, and depends on the will of the Holy Spirit. Since then the Holy Trinity fulfils every operation in a manner similar to that of which I have spoken, not by separate action according to the number of the Persons, but so that there is one motion and disposition of the good will which is communicated from the Father through the Son to the Spirit (for as we do not call those whose operation gives one life three Givers of life, neither do we call those who are contemplated in one goodness three Good beings, nor speak of them in the plural by any of their other attributes); so neither can we call those who exercise this Divine and superintending power and operation towards ourselves and all creation, conjointly and inseparably, by their mutual action, three Gods."
  7. ↑ Gregory of Nyssa, "On 'Not three Gods'."


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