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Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church/Index: Difference between revisions
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*[[/Chapter 12|Claims made in "Chapter 12: Faith Promoting Science"]]
*[[/Chapter 12|Claims made in "Chapter 12: Faith Promoting Science"]]


===Chapter 13: LDS Molecular Apologetics===
*[[/Chapter 13|Claims made in "Chapter 13: LDS Molecular Apologetics"]]
{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
!width="5%"|Page
!width="40%"|Claim
!width="30%"|Response
!width="25%"|[[Use of sources]]
|-
| style="width:5%"|
====180====
||
 
* Most Mormons have had their ancestors posthumously "baptized into the Mormon faith."
||
* {{FalseStatement}}: Those who receive baptism for the dead are not "baptized into the faith."  Members believe that non-members are thereby given the ability to accept or reject the gospel when they hear it.  Baptism for the dead does not make them "Mormons."
* [[Baptism for the dead]]
||
*
*No source given.
|-
|
 
====181====
||
* FARMS has downplayed the potential of James Sorenson's "global molecular genealogy project."
||
* The author needs to provide actual evidence of this claim.
||
*
*No source given.
|-
|
 
====181====
||
* The Molecular Genealogy Foundation may reveal disconcerting "surprises" in LDS family trees that trace back to "well known polygamists" in the early church.
||
* [[Joseph Smith and polygamy/Children of polygamous marriages]]
||
*
*Author's opinion that the project may reveal embarrassing information about the descendants of Joseph Smith and other Church leaders through plural wives.
|-
|
====184====
||
* The Indian Student Placement Program was an attempt to turn them "white and delightsome."
||
* [[Lamanite curse]]
||
*
*Thomas Murphy, doctoral thesis.
|-
|
====184====
||
* "Mormon folklore" claims that Native Americans and Polynesians carry a curse based upon "misdeeds on the part of their ancestors."
||
* [[Lamanite curse]]
||
*
*Thomas W. Murphy and Simon G. Southerton. 2003. "Genetic Research: A 'Galileo Event' for Mormons," ''Anthropology News'', 44:20.
|-
|
====185====
||
* LDS scholars experienced in DNA research have spoken only to Mormon audiences.
||
* {{FalseStatement}}
* {{Absurd}}: one LDS author on DNA matters is John Butler, an internationally recognized expert in the use of forensic DNA—he literally wrote the textbook used by law enforcement on this matter.  Butler has spoken to many audiences about DNA matters.
*{{JBMS-12-1-4}}<!--Butler-->
*{{FR-18-1-6}}<!--Butler-->
||
*
*Scott R. Woodward, "DNA and the Book of Mormon," FAIR. (2001)
|-
|
 
====185-186====
||
* In response to the DNA issue, the Church linked to an article written by Jeff Lindsey, "a chemical engineer with no professional training in DNA research."
||
* This is classic ''ad hominem''.  What matters are not Lindsey's credentials, but whether his argument is accurate.  The author never engages Lindsay's evidence or argument; he simply treats it as unworthy of attention.
* Ironically, the author of the book here under review has no professional training in population genetics (he is a plant biologist), and yet he expects ''us'' to accept his assessment.
* [[Book of Mormon and DNA evidence]]
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Apologists not official}}
||
*
*www.lds.org, "Mistakes in the News," 2003.
*Jeff D. Lindsay, [http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml "Does DNA Evidence Refute the Book of Mormon?"] (2003)
|-
|
 
====186====
||
* LDS scientists have responded to DNA findings by claiming that it would be improbable to find evidence of an Israelite presence in the Americas.
||
* The author has actually elsewhere expressed his agreement with this claim, noting that LDS scientists have argued that "Bottleneck effect, genetic drift, Hardy-Weinberg violations and other technical problems would prevent us from detecting Israelite genes [in Amerindians].  I agree entirely.  In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it would be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later."{{ref|southerton.1}}
* Interestingly, this admission was later removed from the website of Southerton's publisher.  Southerton goes on to argue that the Book of Mormon "doesn't say this," but as we've noted some leaders and scholars have been reading the text that way for at least a century.  The author even admits as much on [[#154|p. 154]].
* So, this attack works only if one reads the text in the most naive, ill-informed way possible&mdash;as the author seems determined to do.
* [[Book of Mormon and DNA evidence]]
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Forced by evidence}}
||
*
*{{FR-15-2-6}} <!--McClellan, 2003-->
*Michael F. Whiting, [http://farms.byu.edu/multimedia/viewmovie.php?id=1 "Does DNA Evidence Refute the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon? Responding to the Critics,"] (2003)
|-
|
 
====186====
||
* LDS writers claim that the presence of other people in the Americas actually supports "careful readings of the Book of Mormon."
||
* LDS writers have been saying this for at least a hundred years, as the author admitted back on [[#154|p. 154]].
* [[Amerindians as Lamanites]]
||
*
*{{FR-15-2-1}} <!--Peterson 2003a-->
*{{FR-15-2-7}} <!--Roper, 2003a-->
|-
|
====186====
||
* LDS scholars "have come to the conclusion" that Book of Mormon populations comprised a very small part of a much larger group of people on the continent.
||
* Some LDS leaders and scholars have been saying this for at least a hundred years, as the author admitted back on [[#154|p. 154]].
* [[Amerindians as Lamanites]]
||
*
*{{FR-15-2-1}} <!--Peterson 2003a-->
|-
|
====187====
||
* LDS suggest that it would impossible to use DNA technology to identify a small local colony of individuals.
||
* [[Amerindians as Lamanites]]
||
*
*{{JBMS-12-1-5}} <!--Meldrum and Stephens, 2003.-->
|-
|
====188====
||
*The author claims that it is not likely that "founders effect" or "genetic drift" would "completely frustrate the identification of Israelite DNA in the Americas."
||
* [[Amerindians as Lamanites]]
||
*
*No source given.
|-
|
====188====
||
* The author claims that Book of Mormon states that the Lehite/Mulekite groups were both descended from Jewish ancestors
||
* {{FalseStatement}}: Lehi was a descendant of ''Manasseh'', and was not a Jew, however, author later makes the correct statement regarding Lehi's ancestry on [[#5|page 5]]. The author makes the same error, however on [[#xiii|p. xiii]].  This is our another hint that the author's familiarity with the necessary detail in the Book of Mormon is not adequate.
* [[Book of Mormon and DNA evidence#What are we looking for?|Book of Mormon and DNA evidence&mdash;What are we looking for?]]
* {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Jews}}
* [[Book of Mormon and DNA evidence#General genetics issues]]
||
*
*No source given.
|-
|
 
====189====
||
* The author claims that the ancestry of Israelites living today will all "meet at the Caucasian branch of the human family tree."
||
* It is not clear what this has to do with the Book of Mormon.
||
* No source provided.
|-
|
 
====190====
||
* The Lemba prove that it is possible to detect Middle Eastern genes in a foreign environment
||
* The Lemba are a special case, only made possible by their links to Jewish priestly families.  98% of known modern Jews cannot be identified by genetic testing.
* [[Book of Mormon and DNA evidence#Lemba and Cohen modal haplotype|Lemba and Cohen modal haplotype]]
* {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Lemba}}
||
*
*{{JBMS-9-2-11}} <!--Sorenson, 2000b-->
|-
|
 
====190====
||
* Church leaders have consistently associated Lamanites with Central America.
||
* [[Book of Mormon geography/Statements|Statements by Church leaders regarding Book of Mormon geography]]
||
*
*Whiting, 2003b.
|-
|
====191====
||
* The Mayan Empire is claimed to considered by Mormons to the closest to the people of the Book of Mormon.
||
* [[Amerindians as Lamanites/Maya and Olmec|Amerindians as Lamanites&mdash;Maya and Olmec]]
||
*
*No source specified.
|-
|
====191====
||
* There is too much genetic variation in the X lineage to account for Book of Mormon people to have arrived as recently as 2600 years ago.
||
* [[Book of Mormon and DNA evidence/Geography issues/Haplotype X2a]]
||
*
*Brown, et al., 1998.
|-
|
====192====
||
* The X lineage occurs in North America and is not found in Central America.
||
* [[Book of Mormon and DNA evidence/Geography issues/Haplotype X2a]]
||
*
*Hauswirth et al., 1994
*Ribeiro-dos-Santo et al., 1996
|-
|
====192====
||
* LDS writers have overlooked the fact that Mitochondrial DNA research shows that 99.6% of Native Americans migrated to the American continent thousands of years before the Israelites came into existence, and none of these are candidates for Israelite origin.
||
* LDS authors have anticipated such findings by at least a century (see, again, [[#154|p. 154]]).
* This attack works only if one reads the text in the most naive, ill-informed way possible&mdash;as the author seems determined to do.
* [[Book of Mormon and DNA evidence]]
 
||
*
*No source given.
|-
|
 
====192====
||
* The remaining 0.4% is likely the result of genetic mixture with people who came to the New World after Columbus
||
* [[Book of Mormon and DNA evidence]]
||
*
*Author's conclusion.
|-
|
====193====
||
* LDS scholars claim that the impact of Book of Mormon immigrants to the New World made an impact "so small that they barely mattered."
||
* The author has actually elsewhere expressed his agreement with this claim, noting that LDS scientists have argued that "Bottleneck effect, genetic drift, Hardy-Weinberg violations and other technical problems would prevent us from detecting Israelite genes [in Amerindians].  I agree entirely.  In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it would be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later."{{ref|southerton.2}}
* Interestingly, this admission was later removed from the website of Southerton's publisher.  Southerton goes on to argue that the Book of Mormon "doesn't say this," but as we've noted some leaders and scholars have been reading the text that way for at least a century.  The author even admits as much on [[#154|p. 154]].
* So, this attack works only if one reads the text in the most naive, ill-informed way possible&mdash;as the author seems determined to do.
* [[Book of Mormon and DNA evidence]]
* [[Amerindians as Lamanites]]
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Forced by evidence}}
||
*
*No source given.
|-
|
 
====193====
||
* A great number of Native Americans are now assumed to have been absorbed into New World Israelite civilizations.
||
* [[Amerindians as Lamanites]]
||
*
*No source given.
|-
|
====193====
||
* "Other people" in the Book of Mormon have "remained invisible" to most readers.
||
* {{MindReading}}
* Just because someone does not notice something does not mean it was there.  Again, the author seems determined to ignore any solution to his problem, and read the text in the most blinkered, ill-informed way possible.
* [[Book of Mormon demographics]]
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:No others}}
||
*
*No source given.
|-
|
 
====193-194====
||
* "Gentiles who inhabited the Americas before, during and after the Book of Mormon period are potential Lamanites."
||
* [[Amerindians as Lamanites]]
||
*
*{{s|2|Nephi|1|5}}
*{{JBMS-12-1-2}} <!--Sorenson and Roper, 2003-->
*{{JBMS-12-1-5}} <!--Meldrum and Stephens, 2003-->
|-
|
====194====
||
* Mormons have "traditionally thought" that any Asian presence in the New World occurred ''after'' the Book of Mormon period.
||
* The author needs evidence for this claim.
* Even Bruce R. McConkie (a good example of "traditional views") say many sources and influence on Amerindian populations:
:The American Indians, however, as Columbus found them also had other blood than that of Israel in their veins. It is possible that isolated remnants of the Jaredites may have lived through the period of destruction in which millions of their fellows perished. It is quite apparent that groups of orientals found their way over the Bering Strait and gradually moved southward to mix with the Indian peoples. We have records of a colony of Scandinavians attempting to set up a settlement in America some 500 years before Columbus. There are archeological indications that an unspecified number of groups of people probably found their way from the old to the new world in pre-Columbian times. Out of all these groups would have come the American Indians as they were discovered in the 15th century.{{ref|md.33}}
* In any case, if the "traditional view" does not match the Book of Mormon text, then it should be set aside.
||
*
*No source given.
|-
|
 
====195====
||
* The children of Lehi were to be "kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves."
||
* {{SourceDistortion}}: This promise applies only as long as the children of Lehi were righteous.  They lost this blessing even within Book of Mormon times.
* [[Amerindians as Lamanites]]
* [[Book of Mormon demographics]]
* {{JBMS-1-1-2}} <!--Sorenson-->
||
*
*{{s|2|Nephi|1|8-9}}
*{{s|2|Nephi|1|10-11}}
*{{FR-15-2-7}} <!--Roper, 2003a-->
|-
|
 
====195====
||
* There are no explicit references to non-Israelites living near the Lehites or Jaredites.
||
* {{CiteCritic}}
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:No others}}
* See response to source: {{FR-16-2-5}} <!--Tvedtnes Reinventing-->
||
*
*Brent L. Metcalf, "Reinventing Lamanite Identity," ''Sunstone'', 131:20-25 (2004).
|-
|
 
====195====
||
* Five hundred years after their arrival, groups were still identified as having descended from Laman, Lemuel, Ishmael, etc.
||
* The author is ''assuming'' what he wants to prove&mdash;that all such labels were about descent, rather than political or religious affiliation.
* [[Book of Mormon tribal affiliations]]
||
*{{s||Alma|43|13}}
|-
|
 
====196====
||
* Familial terms used in the Book of Mormon imply a genetic link.
||
* {{Absurd}}: The Book of Mormon makes it clear that except in a very early period, tribal designation is a ''political'', not genetic matter.
* [[Book of Mormon tribal affiliations]] {{nw}}
||
*{{s||Moroni|9|1}}
*Author's conclusion.
|-
|
 
====197====
||
* Joseph Smith and other leaders taught that the Book of Mormon described the origins of the Indians in the western hemisphere.
||
* [[Book of Mormon geography/Statements|Statements by Church leaders regarding Book of Mormon geography]]
||
*
*{{FR-15-2-7}} <!--Roper, 2003a-->
*{{FR-15-2-8}} <!--Roper, 2003b-->
|-
|
====197====
||
* Mormons "tend to be hazy" regarding what past Church leaders have said regarding geography.
||
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Most Mormons}}
* [[Book of Mormon geography/Statements|Statements by Church leaders regarding Book of Mormon geography]]
||
*No source given.
|}
 
*[[/Chapter 14|Claims made in "Chapter 14: Moving the Spirit"]]
*[[/Chapter 14|Claims made in "Chapter 14: Moving the Spirit"]]


Revision as of 03:20, 17 February 2010


A work by author: Dr. Simon G. Southerton

Index to claims made in Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church

This is an index of claims made in this work with links to corresponding responses within the FAIR Wiki. An effort has been made to provide the author's original sources where possible.

Endnotes

  1. [note]  Wilford Woodruff, Conference Report (October 1897), 18-19.
  2. [note]  History of the Church, 5:517. Volume 5 link
  3. [note]  Simon Southerton, e-mail, “Answering the DNA apologetics,” 15 February 2005, 18h42 (copy in author’s possession).
  4. [note]  Simon Southerton, e-mail, “Answering the DNA apologetics,” 15 February 2005, 18h42 (copy in author’s possession).
  5. [note]  Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd edition, (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), 33. GL direct link
  6. [note]  Dallin H. Oaks, "Historicity of the Book of Mormon," Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies Annual Dinner Provo, Utah, 29 October 1993; cited in Dallin H. Oaks, "The Historicity of the Book of Mormon," (Provo, Utah: FARMS, 1994): 2–3.

Further reading

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{{To learn more box:responses to: 8: The Mormon Proposition}} To learn more box:responses to: 8: The Mormon Proposition edit
{{To learn more box:''Under the Banner of Heaven''}} To learn more about responses to: Under the Banner of Heaven edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Robert Price}} To learn more about responses to: Robert Price edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ankerberg and Weldon}} To learn more about responses to: Ankerberg and Weldon edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ashamed of Joseph}} To learn more about responses to: Ashamed of Joseph edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Beckwith and Moser}} To learn more about responses to: Beckwith and Moser edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Beckwith and Parrish}} To learn more about responses to: Beckwith and Parrish edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Benjamin Park}} To learn more about responses to: Benjamin Park edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bible versus Joseph Smith}} To learn more about responses to: Bible versus Joseph Smith edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bible versus Book of Mormon}} To learn more about responses to: Bible versus Book of Mormon edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: ''Big Love''}} To learn more about responses to: Big Love edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Brett Metcalfe}} To learn more about responses to: Brett Metcalfe edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bill Maher}} To learn more about responses to: Bill Maher edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bruce H. Porter}} To learn more about responses to: Bruce H. Porter edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Carol Wang Shutter}} To learn more about responses to: Carol Wang Shutter edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: CES Letter}} To learn more about responses to: CES Letter edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Charles Larson}} To learn more about responses to: Charles Larson edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Christopher Nemelka}} To learn more about responses to: Christopher Nemelka edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Colby Townshed}} To learn more about responses to: Colby Townshed edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Contender Ministries}} To learn more about responses to: Contender Ministries edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Crane and Crane}} To learn more about responses to: Crane and Crane edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: D. Michael Quinn}} To learn more about responses to: D. Michael Quinn edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Dan Vogel}} To learn more about responses to: Dan Vogel edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: David John Buerger}} To learn more about responses to: David John Buerger edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: David Persuitte}} To learn more about responses to: David Persuitte edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Denver Snuffer}} To learn more about responses to: Denver Snuffer edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Dick Bauer}} To learn more about responses to: Dick Bauer edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Duwayne R Anderson}} To learn more about responses to: Duwayne R Anderson edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Earl Wunderli}} To learn more about responses to: Earl Wunderli edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ed Decker}} To learn more about responses to: Ed Decker edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Erikson and Giesler}} To learn more about responses to: Erikson and Giesler edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ernest Taves}} To learn more about responses to: Ernest Taves edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Fawn Brodie}} To learn more about responses to: Fawn Brodie edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: George D Smith}} To learn more about responses to: George D Smith edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Grant Palmer}} To learn more about responses to: Grant Palmer edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Hank Hanegraaff}} To learn more about responses to: Hank Hanegraaff edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Hurlbut-Howe}} To learn more about responses to: Hurlbut-Howe edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: James Brooke}} To learn more about responses to: James Brooke edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: James Spencer}} To learn more about responses to: James Spencer edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: James White}} To learn more about responses to: James White edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jerald and Sandra Tanner}} To learn more about responses to: Jerald and Sandra Tanner edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jesus Christ-Joseph Smith or Search for the Truth DVD}} To learn more about responses to: Jesus Christ-Joseph Smith or Search for the Truth DVD edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: John Dehlin}} To learn more about responses to: John Dehlin edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jonathan Neville}} To learn more about responses to: Jonathan Neville edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Kurt Van Gorden}} To learn more about responses to: Kurt Van Gorden edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Laura King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery}} To learn more about responses to: Laura King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Loftes Tryk aka Lofte Payne}} To learn more about responses to: Loftes Tryk aka Lofte Payne edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Luke WIlson}} To learn more about responses to: Luke WIlson edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Marquardt and Walters}} To learn more about responses to: Marquardt and Walters edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Martha Beck}} To learn more about responses to: Martha Beck edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Mcgregor Ministries}} To learn more about responses to: Mcgregor Ministries edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: McKeever and Johnson}} To learn more about responses to: McKeever and Johnson edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: New Approaches}} To learn more about responses to: New Approaches to the Book of Mormon edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard Abanes}} To learn more about responses to: Richard Abanes edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard Van Wagoner}} To learn more about responses to: Richard Van Wagoner edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard and Joan Ostling}} To learn more about responses to: Richard and Joan Ostling edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Rick Grunger}} To learn more about responses to: Rick Grunger edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Robert Ritner}} To learn more about responses to: Robert Ritner edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Rod Meldrum}} To learn more about responses to: Rod Meldrum edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Roger I Anderson}} To learn more about responses to: Roger I Anderson edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ronald V. Huggins}} To learn more about responses to: Ronald V. Huggins edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Sally Denton}} To learn more about responses to: Sally Denton edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Simon Southerton}} To learn more about responses to: Simon Southerton edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Thomas Murphy}} To learn more about responses to: Thomas Murphy edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Todd Compton}} To learn more about responses to: Todd Compton edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Vernal Holley}} To learn more about responses to: Vernal Holley edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Walter Martin}} To learn more about responses to: Walter Martin edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Wesley Walters}} To learn more about responses to: Wesley Walters edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Will Bagley}} To learn more about responses to: Will Bagley edit


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