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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede/Posing as a questioning member online: Difference between revisions
 
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#REDIRECT [[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink]]
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|author=David Twede
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|section=Twede's long history of pretending to be a questioning member online
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=Twede's history of posing as a questioning member online since 2009=
{{Epigraph|Posing as a questioning member (which I am, just not active), I asked a question at FAIR's page.  A Moap emailed me--someone who works with Danny Boy. This game is a bit different than the one you can play with the kindergarten missionaries at Mormon.org.....Posing as a fully active Mo is the only real gray area. I've resolved it for myself, but always wondered how Moaps handle it. Questioning allows me to see this....I felt that a little subterfuge would allow the experiment to run its course better than direct discussion as an exmo. Perhaps that is not appropriate, perhaps it is.<br>David Twede posting as "Jesus Smith" on Postmormon.org, February 1, 2012.
}}
{{parabreak}}
 
==October 2009: Twede joins Postmormon.org as "Jesus Smith."==
Twede publicly linked his "Jesus Smith" account on Postmormon.org to his real name on September 22, 2010, when he claimed ownership of David Twede's photographs. {{ref|otphoto}}
 
==August 2010: Twede poses as questioning member "cryophil" in communication with FAIR==
On August 30, 2010, Twede sent a message to FAIR posing as a questioning Church member. He sent his message to FAIR using the identifier "'''cryophil'''".
 
Cryophil wrote to FAIR,
<blockquote>
Hi, life member of LDS church.  I am concernced about claims by anti-mormons saying that there is evidence suggesting that a lot of human sacrifice happened in mesoamerica during the period of great peace and Christ centered society of 4 Nephi (aprox. 30-220AD). The argument is that Christ destroyed all the wicked cities (3 Ne 8-9) and left the more righteous part of the people. He established his church, which stood up a society of common good and peace that prospered greatly and multiplied across the continents.  But there are archeological evidence suggesting the biggest cities practiced human sacrifice and polytheism during the time of great peace. How can this be? {{ref|fair.cryophil}}
</blockquote>
 
(Note: For FAIR's response to the actual question asked, see [[Book of Mormon/Archaeology/Human sacrifice during 4 Nephi time period]].)
 
==January 2011: Twede tells "Postmormon.org" that he is posing as questioning member "cryophil" on the Mormon Apologetic Discussion Board (now MormonDialogue)==
For a period of time, "Jesus Smith" cross-posted material from Postmormon.org to the Mormon Apologetic Discussion Board under the name "cryophil," starting on January 30, 2010. He was banned from the forum after making 35 posts. He talked about his efforts on Postmormon.org. (Note, the references to the "book of moron" and "profits" are not typographical errors&mdash;they are simply common derogatory terms used by ex-Mormons on message boards when they talk of "The Book of Mormon" and "prophets.")
<blockquote>
Ok, over at MADB the question was asked about what archaeology supporting the book of moron exists....Yes, the Moaps have made serious compromises to get to where they are: forcing the BoM to fit science.  They argue that traditional interpretations were just that all along--including Joe Smith's take on the BoM.  He and all profits are not enlightened like the Moaps.....'''BTW, I am cryophil. But keep that a secret please.  ;-)  If any of you can add to the MADB discussion, my alter ego would appreciate the assistance.'''  I've posted several more times today... {{ea}} {{ref|jesussmith.cryophil.mddb}}
</blockquote>
 
==February 2011: Twede talks about his interaction with FAIR with his friends on "Postmormon.org"==
Note that the term "moap" is Twede's contraction of "Mormon apologist," and the term "Danny Boy" is a diminutive reference to Daniel C. Peterson.
 
Twede comments on Postmormon.org,
<blockquote>
So I am sitting in my recliner, smoking a stogie, enjoying a snifter of scotch while I converse cozily with one of the elite FAIR moaps.  I'll keep his name out of it for now.
<br><br>
Here's how it started.  '''Posing as a questioning member (which I am, just not active), I asked a question at FAIR's page.  A Moap emailed me--someone who works with Danny Boy. This game is a bit different than the one you can play with the kindergarten missionaries at Mormon.org.'''  {{ea}}
<br><br>
Many of you know I have angst over 4 Nephi.  The part where this society from heaven on earth has peace for almost 200 years?  My question started out:
<br><br>
<blockquote>
I am concerned about claims by anti-mormons saying that there is evidence suggesting that a lot of human sacrifice happened in mesoamerica during the period of great peace and Christ centered society of 4 Nephi (aprox. 30-220AD). The argument is that Christ destroyed all the wicked cities (3 Ne 8-9) and left the more righteous part of the people. He established his church, which stood up a society of common good and peace that prospered greatly and multiplied across the continents.  But there are archeological evidence suggesting the biggest cities practiced human sacrifice and polytheism during the time of great peace. How can this be? {{ref|cozing.postmormon}}
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
Responding to questions from other posters regarding his motives in interacting with FAIR, Twede goes on to state,
<blockquote>
Truth is, I am not officially resigned, and this is an issue for me--one of my biggest.  '''Posing as a fully active Mo is the only real gray area.'''  I've resolved it for myself, but always wondered how Moaps handle it.  Questioning allows me to see this....'''I felt that a little subterfuge would allow the experiment to run its course better than direct discussion as an exmo.  Perhaps that is not appropriate, perhaps it is.''' {{ea}} {{ref|perhaps.it.is}}
</blockquote>
 
==October 2011: Twede as "cryophil" tells MormonDialogue that this is his "last ditch effort" to believe and that he "may have to accept the Book of Mormon as fictional"==
On October 26, 2011, "cryophil" portrayed his interaction with believers on the MormonDialogue board as his "last ditch effort" to believe.
<blockquote>
I'm asking as a final, last ditch effort to see if there are answers that make sense.  I doubt it now.  What I've seen are answers which re-interpret the scriptures on opinions, often contrary to the spoken word of GAs. What I've seen are compartmentalized, isolated fits of indirect evidence to obscure parts of the BoM.  What I've seen is dissembling on the areas in which a traditional reading of the BoM run completely orthogonal to scientific data. I don't really get the sense that the whole truth is examined by this forum or at FAIR.  I get the impression that some truths are not very useful, so goes the cherry picking. {{ref|cryophil.mddb.last.ditch}}
</blockquote>
 
<blockquote>
We are going round and round here.  I have my questions these days. I am not sure they can be answered.  It may be that I will have to accept the BoM as fictional moral teachings.  That's a lot easier than to accept science is just wrong, and FAIR's interpretations are more scholarly. {{ref|cryophil.mddb.bom.fictional}}
</blockquote>
 
==April 2012: Twede creates the account "cryophil" on lds.net==
 
==May 12, 2012: "Jesus Smith" tells Postmormon.org that he is posing as questioning member "cryophil" on lds.net==
<blockquote>
Ok. I admit, I inflated the % up just to not appear anti Mormon. (yes, i'm the shill cryophil. shh.){{ref|jesussmith.cryophil.lds.net}}
</blockquote>
 
==May 2012: Twede tells Postmormon.org that he is giving "lds.net Mormons a run for their money" and that he is "hammering them with logic"==
In May 2011, Twede crossposted material between his account on Postmormon.org and a new account he had created on lds.net named "'''cryophil'''". The name ''cryophil'', of course, is the same identifier he used when communicating with FAIR and on MormonDialogue. The "cryophil" account was active on lds.net during April and May of 2012, once again posing as an active but questioning Church member in his interactions with others there. On May 9 and 10th, he updated the ex-Mormon message board Postmormon.org regarding his efforts on lds.net,
 
<blockquote>
Like many of you, I find the concept of religious faith absurd. It is a mind-trick to place it at the top, in first position, so that those who are racing to their belief will jump over it without much thought.....'''This topic is giving LDS.NET mormons a run for their money.  Some of our posts have made their way into the discussion. haha'''<br>
see [http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/46383-why-faith-1st-principle.html why-faith-1st-principle] {{ea}} {{ref|jesussmith.faith.absurd}}
</blockquote>
The link is to a post on lds.net made by "cryophil" on May 7, 2012. On May 10, 2012, "cryophil" talks of "the faith" that he has "placed in Mormonism" on lds.net,
<blockquote>
My other question then is, what happens when the evidence found by science contradicts the faith I've placed in Mormonism? {{ref|cryophil.faith}}
</blockquote>
The next day, Twede reported back to the ex-Mormon board that he was "[c]ontinuing to hammer them with logic." {{ref|hammerlogic}}
 
Twede's "cryophil" account on lds.net was ultimately banned.
 
==August 2012: Someone at Twede's IP address creates account "starlight012" and reports a "bad member" running MormonThink==
An individual at the same IP address later used by David Twede in September to create an account at "lds.net," created the account "starlight012" and posted the following messages on the "lds.net" forum (a forum for believers) in late August, 2012.
<blockquote>
Hi, I am new to the forum. I want help. There is a member who is posting anti-mormon information and claiming to be a member in good standing. I know him, his name and want his leaders to encourage him to stop. What do I do? it's an article at that mormon think website.{{ref|starlight1}}
<br><br>
I think it's an anti-mormon site. I know the guy that wrote that and he's claiming to be a good member, but I know he's not. {{ref|starlight1b}}
<br><br>
Now I am getting confused. Some of you have said that they lie a lot at MT, pretending to be active members. That's also what I know of David, the current editor there. However, some of you have said that the material is correct and while presented in a way to convey a message that pushes apart, it is not untrue. Some have said that it is very misleading, but that it has the facts correct. What is going on here? The new editor that I know is there because the previous one left the church. He is still a member, but I wouldn't call him a good member. However, I have read the article and now see that all of the points come directly from scriptures or standard books in the church. I think it is meant to divide people, using the facts. If this gets out to non-members, and if they think a good member is writing this, that is going to look bad. Can't we get it shut down or have the editor reprimanded by church leaders for portraying himself that way? {{ref|starlight1c}}
</blockquote>
This was the first time that FAIR became aware that there was a new editor at MormonThink, and that the previous founder and managing editor had resigned from the Church.
 
==September 10, 2012: "starlight012" returns to lds.net to post a link to Twede's blog==
"Starlight012" returned to lds.net a few weeks later and posted a link to Twede's new blog, in which he was detailing his experiences upon returning to church attendance.
<blockquote>
I can't remember if this is the forum where I posted about the guy posing as an active member to run an anti-mormon site. Well, now he's attending church again. [Direct link deleted - Mods.] And writing about it. I understand we can't stop it, but, he's not being straight about his intent. {{ref|starlight1d}}
</blockquote>
 
==September 2012: "starlight012" on lds.net sends private messages to FAIR regarding the "bad member"==
The following messages were sent by "starlight012" to a member of FAIR via email. This person gave the name "David Twede" to FAIR (the first time anyone at FAIR had heard it). It seems that "starlight012" wanted to know if FAIR had "gotten" the previous MormonThink managing editor, who states that he resigned from the Church after being scheduled for a disciplinary council. FAIR does not know the name of the previous editor, and did not contact his Bishop or Stake President.
<blockquote>
*"starlight012" said: You're welcome. What will you be able to do about this except to report about it at FAIR? Can this man get reported to his bishop? If he's using his active membership to promote anti-mormonism, his bishop might not take kindly to it.
*"starlight012" said: I know him. That's why I posted the first time a few weeks ago. I know the photo on his profile at the mormonthink site and enough of his history (living in Ann Arbor, etc) that I am sure. His name is David Twede. I don't know what ward he's in, but he mentions Florida. Thanks!
*"starlight012" said: Glad it helped. Please keep me posted what happens. thanks :-)
*"starlight012" said: There was something in the blog posted today, I noticed. I don't remember what it was right now. How did you get the other general editor? Did someone like me turn him in too?
*"starlight012" said: Looks like they went after him. See the blog. http://prozac-ville.blogspot.com
*"starlight012" said: No problem. I hope they don't get scared off by that press statement. They'll probably back down from the court now. That's probably what he wants and why he's taking it out there.
*"starlight012" said: where did you see this press release? I'm searching online. His blog is gone too.
</blockquote>
 
==September 20, 2012: Twede tells Postmormon.org of his attempt to post a message on lds.net was deleted==
On September 20, 2012, David Twede, this time under his real name at Postmormon.org, states that he attempted to post his intent to create a media stir about his pending discipline to a number of online forums. He posted the following on "Postmormon.org" on September 20,
<blockquote>
I have simultaneously posted to MormonDiscussions, RfM, StayLDS, Postmormon and LDS.NET forums, for completeness.  However, LDSNET took it down immediately.{{ref|twede.postmo.1}}
</blockquote>
Twede did not provide the reason why his post was deleted from lds.net, nor did he say that the new account that he had created there was immediately banned.
 
==September 21, 2012: Twede tells "The Daily Beast" that someone from FAIR contacted his local ecclesiastical authorities==
According to Jamie Reno in "The Daily Beast,"
<blockquote>
Twede asked church leaders how they came up with his name so fast after posting the articles. They wouldn't tell him, but '''he says he’s since been told by a church insider that a contributor to the pro-Mormon Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research, many of whose members are professors at Brigham Young University, alerted church officials in Salt Lake City, who apparently informed his local ecclesiastical leaders.''' {{ea}}{{ref|reno1}}
</blockquote>
In an interview with the New York Times, FAIR President Scott Gordon was asked about this. Gordon remarks,
<blockquote>
I forwarded the links of that public blog to some of my friends. The New York Times reporter who called said my email was forwarded to Twede’s stake president. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not. I did not speak with any of his local leaders, nor did I send an email to them. I told the reporter it was more likely one of his local ward members had read his public blog and told the stake president, but she insisted I was the source as she heard that from David Twede himself.{{ref|gordon1}}
</blockquote>
 
==September 24, 2012: lds.net moderators ban Twede's accounts after identifying him as "starlight012"==
After banning David Twede's new account and the "starlight012" account at lds.net, a moderator posted the following notice,
<blockquote>
The person who started this IS the person who writes the blog, whose deception here will tell you all you need to know about his sense of ethics. {{ref|eowyn1}}
</blockquote>
The reason for the ban was that it was discovered that the new account that Twede created under his own name at "lds.net" used the same IP address as the account created by "starlight012" - the person who originally reported that a "bad member" was running MormonThink.
 
==October 3, 2012: Twede is asked whether or not he is "starlight012"==
When a poster on the MormonDiscussions forum questioned Twede directly about whether or not he was responsible for "starlight012," Twede responded on October 3,
<blockquote>
No, these are silly accusations. But the information there is interesting. Either a family member outed me or they're making excuses. {{ref|twede.mdb.oct.3.2012}}
</blockquote>
 
=={{Endnotes label}}==
#{{note|otphoto}}"Jesus Smith," ""OT Photo Thread," posted on Postmormon.org, September 22, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/24076/#426359}}
#{{note|fair.cryophil}}Message sent to FAIR's "Ask the Apologist" service on August 30, 2012 by "Phil C." from email address "cryophil". Located in FAIR's archives.
#{{note|cozing.postmormon}}"Jesus Smith," "Cozing up with FAIR (stage 1)", posted on Postmormon.org, February 1, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/26679/#465342}}
#{{note|perhaps.it.is}}"Jesus Smith," "Cozing up with FAIR (stage 1)", posted on Postmormon.org, February 1, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/26679/}}
#{{note|jesussmith.cryophil.mddb}}"Jesus Smith," "One of the top LDS “experts” on Mesoamerica promotes cherry picking", posted on Postmormon.org, October 26, 2011. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/30596/}}
#{{note|cryophil.mddb.last.ditch}}"cryophil", "Book Of Mormon Archaeology", posted on MormonDialogue, October 26, 2011. {{link|url=http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56087-book-of-mormon-archaeology/page__st__20#entry1209059914}}
#{{note|cryophil.mddb.bom.fictional}}"cryophil," "Book Of Mormon Archaeology", posted on MormonDialogue, October 26, 2011. {{link|url=http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56087-book-of-mormon-archaeology/page__st__20#entry1209059752}}
#{{note|jesussmith.cryophil.lds.net}}"Jesus Smith," "Oh boy…Continuing to hammer them with logic ....", posted on Postmormon.org, May 12, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/33406/#539944}}
#{{note|jesussmith.faith.absurd}}"Jesus Smith," "The hypocrisy of the “Faith” argument in Alma 32", posted on Postmormon.org, May 9, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/33381/#539716}}
#{{note|cryophil.faith}}"cryophil," "Why is Faith the 1st principle?", posted on lds.net, May 10, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/46383-why-faith-1st-principle-2.html#post669872}}
#{{note|hammerlogic}}"Jesus Smith," "Oh boy…Continuing to hammer them with logic ....," posted on Postmormon.org, May 11, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/33406/}}
#{{note|starlight1}}"starlight012," "Report bad member?", posted on lds.net, August 23, 2012. ("starlight012" account linked to David Twede by lds.net moderators and subsequently banned as having originated from the same IP address) {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/48374-report-bad-member.html}}
#{{note|starlight1b}}Posted by "starlight012" on lds.net, August 24, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/48374-report-bad-member.html#post693154}}
#{{note|starlight1c}}Posted by "starlight012" on lds.net, August 24, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/48374-report-bad-member-2.html#post693277}}
#{{note|starlight1d}}Posted by "starlight012" on lds.net, August 24, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/48662-member-returned-church.html#post697230}}
#{{note|twede.postmo.1}}David Twede, "MormonThink events," posted on Postmormon.org, September 20, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/34897/}}
#{{note|reno1}}Jamie Reno, "Mormons Want to Excommunicate Romney Critic," ''The Daily Beast'', Sept. 21, 2012 {{link|url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/21/mormons-want-to-excommunicate-romney-critic.html}}
#{{note|gordon1}}Scott Gordon, "Message from the President," ''The FAIR Journal'', September 2012 {{link|url=http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/fair-journals/FJ201209-html}}
#{{note|eowyn1}}Message posted by moderator "Eowyn" on "lds.net," September 24, 2012) {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/48374-report-bad-member-4.html#post700733}}
#{{note|twede.mdb.oct.3.2012}}David Twede, "Question for David Twede", posted on ''MormonDiscussions'', October 3, 2012. {{link|url=http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=641681#p641681}}

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