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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink: Difference between revisions
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=''MormonThink's'' list of 25 items that would "make the Church true"=
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{{Epigraph|You say that I may have contributed to “accelerating someone’s journey through Mormonism”. That seems to imply that they would eventually leave Mormonism anyway so all I did was speed up the process. If that’s the case, I would say that I probably did them a favor. If they would eventually leave the church regardless then isn’t it better that they make that decision now and just move on?<br>&mdash;"Truthseeker," webmaster at MormonThink.com, email, July 7, 2009}}
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink
|H=A FairMormon Analysis of the critical website ''MormonThink.com''
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{{Epigraph|I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. twas fun. <br><br>&mdash;MormonThink's first managing editor, Feb. 21, 2012, 12:50PM. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012 at 12:50PM. After FairMormon posted this quote, the original was deleted from the RFM board. The original thread in which it appeared, however, still exists here: Thread [http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,423418,423816 Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?], ''Recovery from Mormonism'', posted Feb. 20, 2012.</ref>
}}
[[File:Mormonthink supporter at april 2014 general conference.jpg|thumb|400px|center|An individual displays a sign advertising MormonThink.com during "The American Atheists Mass Resignation Event" at the April 2014 General Conference]]
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{{Epigraph|My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it.<br>&mdash;MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's second managing editor, David Twede (posting as "Jesus Smith"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012.</ref>
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{{Epigraph|Give me a Walter Martin anytime, a good stout wolf with his own fur on, instead of those more timid or sly parading around in their ridiculous fleeces with their teeth and tails hanging out. Give me "Ex-Mormons for Jesus" or the Moody Bible Tract Society, who are at least honest about their anti-Mormon agenda, instead of [those] camouflaged as..."Latter-day Saint[s]"....I prefer my anti-Mormons straight up.<br>&mdash;Stephen Robinson{{ref|robinson.1}}}}
{{Epigraph|It is amazing to me that we are perceived as 'angry' for speaking against the lies of the church and the way in which we are maligned by them. Yet, Jeff Holland can huff and puff, shout and scream, dribble from his mouth and pound the pulpit while he tells blatant lies, and he is considered so 'spiritual'. The mind boggles at how dumb (or brainwashed) TBMs [True Believing Mormons] can be.<br>&mdash;MormonThink's third managing editor, Tom Phillips, posting as "anointed one" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', July 6, 2013. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's third and current managing editor (posting as "anointed one"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', July 6, 2013.</ref>
 
}}
=Overview=
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==FAIR's evaluation of the web site ''MormonThink''==
{{Epigraph|Am I still an active member of the LDS Church? Yes. I no longer believe it is the one, true church. I stay in primarily to help others just discovering the truth about Mormonism. We at MT think every member has the right to know about the true origins of Mormonism.<br>&mdash;Poster "mormonthink," 'I am the webmaster of MormonThink.com AMA', posted on ex-Mormon subreddit, January 28, 2012. {{link|url=https://pay.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/ozyfg/i_am_the_webmaster_of_mormonthinkcom_ama/}}
 
}}
*FAIR's responses to "Ask the Apologist" queries and data from the FAIR Wiki are placed in a context in which they are misrepresented to support the site's negative conclusions. FAIR does not endorse the use of its material to bolster the negative conclusions drawn by the ''MormonThink'' site, or the way in which the site addresses issues of LDS belief, history, and scripture which FAIR views as flawed in significant ways.
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*It is encouraging that a few small changes were made when LDS members pointed out various problems. However, though this seems to enhance the site's veneer of balance, the conclusions and insinuation about the Church, its leaders, and its members remain the same&mdash;always negative.
{{Epigraph|The leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been ordered to appear before a magistrate in England on fraud charges filed by a disaffected ex-Mormon who disputes fundamental teachings of the religion....The criminal complaint was lodged by Tom Phillips, a Mormon who said he withdrew from the Church after holding positions in England as bishop, stake president and area executive secretary. He now serves as managing editor of MormonThink, an online publication that critiques the Church's history and doctrine.<br>&mdash;Dennis Wagner, [http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/04/mormon-president-ordered-to-court/5216645/ "Mormon president ordered to appear in British court,"] ''USA TODAY'' (4 February 2014)
* It is ironic that a site which frequently criticizes the Church for a lack of "honesty" or "transparency" claims to be a source operated by faithful and believing members who are not forthright about their own identities.
}}
 
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==Summary==
{{Epigraph|Mormons, your prophet is lame, deaf and mute.  Can he get a miracle cure?<br>&mdash;MormonThink editor David Twede, "No Miracles for the Lame, Deaf and Mute Monson," ''Mormon Disclosures'' February 7, 2014.}}
The web site ''MormonThink.com'' claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in presenting objectively the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. Its purpose is to introduce members to as much information as possible in order to persuade them to "think" their way out of the Church, and, quite possibly, a belief in God. The site operators state they "would rather have a somewhat smaller church full of knowledgeable, loyal, full-believing members than a large church full of inactive, semi-believing members." The site is a popular reference for many anti-Mormon sites because it claims to be balanced due to its inclusion of links to a few faith-promoting sites such as FAIR. In fact, answers to questions sent to FAIR's "Ask the Apologist" have been included on the site and used to "support" some of the sites negative conclusions by omitting context and relevant information.
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{{Epigraph|This is an application on behalf of Mr. Monson....for the withdrawal of two summonses for fraud issued by this court on application by Mr. Phillips.....It would be relatively easy to state explicitly that Mr. Monson has made these specific representations, and when and how the misrepresentations were made. This has not been done.....It is obvious that this proposed prosecution attacks the doctrine and beliefs of the Mormon Church.... I am satisfied that the process of the court is being manipulated to provide a high-profile forum to attack the religious beliefs of others. It is an abuse of the process of the court....For the reasons given above, these summonses are withdrawn.<br>Judge Howard Riddle, Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate) in the Westminster Magistrate's Court, Thomas Phillips vs. Thomas Monson (20 March 2014) in response to the summonses facilitated by former MormonThink Managing Editor Tom Phillips. {{link|url=http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/thomas-phillips-v-thomas-monson.pdf}}
==What quality of "thinking" is recommended?==
}}
The site is not merely an attempt to "steady the ark" by redirecting the Church according to the vision of its authors, but in some ways represents an attempt to actually lead members out of the church. The site's overall attitude toward religion is best summarized by their link to a routine by the late comedian George Carlin called "Religion is BS". ''MormonThink'' comments:
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<blockquote>
{{Epigraph|Phillips is not discouraged by the ruling, according to a statement put out by David Twede, a spokesman for MormonThink.com, where Phillips is the managing editor. "Although this ruling represents a setback for our cause, we remain steadfast in our commitment to bring the LDS Corporation to justice," Phillips is quoted as saying. "For people around the world, this case has brought to light the truth: The LDS organization has committed fraud, and fraud is a serious crime."<br>"British judge tosses fraud suit against Mormon prophet," ''Salt Lake Tribune'' (20 March 2014) {{link|url=http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57706938-78/church-court-lds-case.html.csp}}
''Comedian George Carlin has a 10 minute bit on why all religion is phony. Although comedic (and irreverent), it does make you think.''
}} -->
</blockquote>
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Thus, according to ''MormonThink'', the validity of truth claims of not only the Church, but of ''any'' religion, ought to be reevaluated in light of a 10-minute shtick performed by a comedian. This is like recommending that one renegotiate his or her faith after viewing Bill Maher's [[Religulous]]. ''This'' then, represents the level of "thinking" that ''MormonThink'' wishes readers to engage in. While encouraging an honest, objective look at the Church, the site does not uphold the standards it claims, as discussed below.
[[File:Mormonthink.chart.summary.png|center|frame]]
 
<onlyinclude>
=A list of things that "would make the Church true"=
{{H2
According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FAIR's response. Most of the list are actually standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FAIR believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink
 
|H=A FairMormon Analysis of claims made on the critical website ''MormonThink.com''
'''Note:''' All of the following questions in the blue boxes come from the ''MormonThink'' web page <nowiki>www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm</nowiki>.
|S=The web site MormonThink.com originally claimed to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. They authors have since abandoned the pretense that any of them are "active" in the Church. The founding webmaster was, by his own admission, pretending to be semi-active in order to destroy members' and missionaries' testimonies from within the social structure of the Church. The site pretends to be "balanced" by presenting information and links to apologetic sites, however, the conclusions reached by the site consistently reflect negatively on the Church's truth claims. The site also sometimes contains a large amount of Temple content.
 
|L1=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
==There would be no variations in the story of the First Vision==
|L2=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Problems"
{{Heading2|1. Joseph would have told the same version of the First Vision throughout his life. He would have gotten the details correct surrounding the most important, spectacular moment anyone could ever have in this life.}}
|L3=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
 
|L4=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"
===Response===
|L5=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
* One might expect a performer or con-man to tell the same story in exactly the same words to every audience.
|L6=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
* Joseph's accounts of the First Vision are both stable and consistent through time.
|L7=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The First Vision"
* The supposed "contradictions" are more in the minds of critics than in the texts themselves and this criticism is a form of question-begging.
|L8=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Book of Abraham"
* {{ReadMore|First_Vision/Accounts|l1=First Vision: accounts}}
|L9=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"
 
|L10=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"
==Joseph's siblings would have been awakened by Moroni==
|L11=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"
{{Heading2|2. Joseph's five brothers (and probably the rest of the household) that were sleeping in his room on September 21, 1823 would have been awakened by the presence of Moroni. They would have testified of his visit as well.}}
|L12=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Polygamy"
===Response===
|L13=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"
*Admittedly, FAIR found this point odd, considering Joseph's visions involved both natural and supernatural elements, yet ''MormonThink'' spends over 3600 words in explanation (<nowiki>http://www.mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm</nowiki>). FAIR's response is much simpler:
|L14=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
*{{s||Luke|1|37}}
|L15=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
<blockquote>
|L16=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Tithing"
''For with God nothing shall be impossible.''
|L17=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Temple"
</blockquote>
|L18=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
 
|L19=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants"
==Joseph would not have translated using a stone in a hat==
}}
{{Heading2|3. If the angel did indeed take back the gold plates and the urim and thummim from Joseph when Martin Harris lost the first 116 pages, he would have returned the urim and thummim to Joseph when he returned the gold plates to him, instead of having Joseph finish the translation using a common stone he found when digging a well.}}
</onlyinclude>
 
==Overview==
===Response===
<!--[[File:Mt.founding.editor.faith.destroying.RFM.jpg|right|600px]]
* If Joseph was perpetuating a scam, why would he use a method&mdash;the seer stone in the hat&mdash;that would be open to ridicule and misrepresentation?  If he could perform the impressive feat of producing the Book of Mormon in two months, why not do it with eyes closed in a solemn voice to impress everyone? There are too many hypothetical points to consider to allow such a criticism carry much weight.
[[File:I.am.the.webmaster.of.mormonthink.AMA-2.jpg|right|600px]]-->
* The critic overlooks the fact that the translation process was also a spiritual growing experience for Joseph.  Granted, he initially required the more powerful Nephite interpreters and was thrilled with them.  But, with practice, his abilities increased to the point that he did not require a physical focus for his faith.
* Joseph did not regard the stone as "common"&mdash;when it was swapped by Martin Harris, Joseph was unaware and unable to translate.
* {{ReadMore|Joseph Smith/Seer stones|l1=Joseph Smith: seer stones|Joseph_Smith/Seer stones#Why_did_use_of_the_seer_stones_subside.3F|l2=Spiritual growth during translation process}}
 
==Joseph would have looked at the gold plates while he translated==
{{Heading2|4. Joseph would likely have actually used the gold plates in the translation process, instead of putting an ordinary stone in a hat without even looking at the plates.}}
 
===Response===
* This is like the "noisy angel" complaint&mdash;having Joseph translate ancient characters with divine instruments and aid with the text in front of him would be perfectly acceptable, but being able to translate the same characters ''without'' the text in front of him is too ridiculous to be believed?
* {{ReadMore|Book_of_Mormon_translation_method|l1=Book of Mormon: translation method}}
 
==Joseph would have re-translated the lost 116 pages==
{{Heading2|5. When the 116 pages were lost, Joseph would have simply retranslated the 'stolen' pages.  If the pages were really stolen by evil men bent on foiling Joseph, the pages would have resurfaced in some form - either as a ransom attempt or foiled attempt to discredit Joseph.  The stolen pages wouldn't have simply been destroyed by men who went to such trouble to obtain them.}}
===Response===
*The web site takes a very pedestrian view of the incident of the lost 116 pages. The Lord taught Joseph an important lesson with the loss of the manuscript, and He provided an alternate text to compensate. The Lord ''commanded'' Joseph not to retranslate the pages, therefore this is really an issue of whether or not one believes that Joseph was actually a prophet. Had the pages not been lost, we would not have the following:
*{{s||DC|3|6-10}}
<blockquote>
''And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.
For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—
Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble. Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall. But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work.''
</blockquote>
*This was an object lesson for Joseph Smith&mdash;he learned of the very real consequence of transgression.
 
==The translation of the papyri and facsimiles would match that performed by Egyptologists==
{{Heading2|6. The translation of the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham would match what Egyptologists say they mean.  The rediscovered papyri would also support the Book of Abraham as well.}}
===Response===
* Evidently, the author has no professional expertise in Egyptology and hopes readers will accept the authority of non-LDS experts.  Yet, there are LDS experts who disagree with the conclusions of the critics.  In an area in which the author(s)&mdash;and most readers&mdash;are not competent to judge, the "thinking" person's response might prefer less dogmatism.
* Since we are missing an estimated 80% of the papyri in Joseph's possession, the author's biases become apparent when he/she insists that the fragments we ''do'' have ''must'' support the Book of Abraham.  However, it is not explained why the small parts of the whole are expected to match.
* {{ReadMore|Book_of_Abraham/Size_of_missing_papyrus|l1=Book of Abraham: amount of missing papyrus}}
* The author actually ignores some Egyptological translations which ''do'' match Joseph Smith's translation.
* The author also ignores the many textual elements in Joseph's translation which match the Abrahamic literature that has since become available. 
* {{ReadMore|Book of Abraham/Hits|l1=Book of Abraham: hits}}
* The author neglects to account for the fact that Egyptological symbols and iconography may have been adapted when the papyri were produced, an unfortunate and simplistic assumption that does not deal with the relevant scholarship on the circumstances. We encourage all thinking individuals to investigate further.
* {{ReadMore|Book_of_Abraham_papyri_(long)#A_Jewish_redactor|l1=A Jewish redactor of Egyptian symbols?}}
 
==There would be no Book of Mormon anachronisms==
{{Heading2|7. The Book of Mormon would not mention things that did not exist in the Americas during Book of Mormon times such as horses, elephants, cattle, goats, wheat, barley, silk, steel, etc.  It would probably mention things that did exist such as corn, yams, beans, squash, llamas, sloths, jaguars, and monkeys.}}
 
===Response===
* A solid understanding of the history of archeological method and findings would discourage such simplistic assertions.  Many things supposed to have been "anachronisms" to Joseph Smith's contemporaries have turned out not to be anachronisms after all.  More knowledge has made Joseph's construction more, not less, plausible.  This trend encourages more humility when dealing with anachronism.
* The claim about anachronisms ignores the nature of translated texts&mdash;even a true anachronism in a translated text is compelling evidence for the date of the text's ''translation'', not its ''composition''.
* {{ReadMore|Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms|l1=Supposed "anachronisms" in the Book of Mormon}}
 
==Archaeology and linguistics would support the Book of Mormon==
{{Heading2|8. The BOM would be supported by archeological and linguistic evidence.  Perhaps not so much evidence that we still wouldn't need faith, but something to show that the ancient Jews could have been in America.}}
===Response===
*The site authors are attempting to define just ''how much evidence is required'' in order to have faith. This presumption gives no compelling argument for its reasoning, and also directly contradicts the scriptures themselves. Moroni states that confirmation ''follows'' the exercise of faith, rather than the other way around:
<blockquote>
''And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.''<br>&mdash;{{s||Ether|12|6}}
</blockquote>
* Many believers, including members of FAIR, believe that there is abundant information available to encourage and confirm our faith.
* Archaeology and related disciplines have provided progressively more support for the Book of Mormon.  Because some difficulties remain, even as the score improves, the critic hopes we will simply give up.
*{{ReadMore|Book of Mormon archaeology}}
 
==There would be evidence of large battles at the Hill Cumorah==
{{Heading2|9. There would be some remains of two large battles at the Hill Cumorah where over two million people fought and died.}}
 
===Response===
 
* The author is assuming, without demonstrating, that the Hill in which the plates were buried was the site of the Nephites' last battle, even though the Book of Mormon text contradicts this assumption.
* {{ReadMore|Archaeology_and_the_Hill_Cumorah|l1=The Hill Cumorah}}
 
==DNA would prove that Native Americans descended from Israel==
{{Heading2|10. DNA evidence would support that the American Indians and South American peoples descended from Israel.}}
===Response===
* No LDS expert would expect that DNA evidence would provide any such support.
* LDS scholars and leaders have made remarks in this vein for [[Book_of_Mormon_geography/Statements|over a century]].
* LDS anthropologist John Sorenson warned in the ''Ensign'' as early as 1984 that this type of assumption would provide fodder for critics, and he was right.  But, attentive students of such matters were aware well (''before'' the critics discovered DNA) that such matters could say little about the Book of Mormon.{{ref|sorenson.1}}
* This supposed "thinking" approach requires that we read the text in the most naive, ill-informed manner possible, and ignore more than a century of work on the topic.
* {{ReadMore|Book of Mormon and DNA evidence|Book of Mormon and DNA evidence/Geography issues|l2=DNA and Geography}}
 
==Joseph would have claimed that the Kinderhook plates were a fraud==
{{Heading2|11. Joseph would have either denounced the Kinderhook Plates as a fraud, or at least said he didn't know what they were.}}
===Response===
*The best argument against Joseph's attempt to translate the Kinderhook plates is simply the fact that no one said anything about it at the time. A trap was laid for Joseph, but he did not step into it. Decades later, with Joseph safely dead, the conspirators came forward and announced they had 'tricked' the prophet. But, if they wanted to show expose Joseph as a fraud, why did they wait for decades to do it? Why didn't they announce their success from the rooftops in Nauvoo and Illinois? Quite simply, Joseph didn't fall for their trap, and so there was nothing to announce.
*{{ReadMore|Kinderhook Plates}}
 
==The witnesses statements would have been more definitive==
{{Heading2|12. The witnesses would have said all objective statements testifying of the BOM's divinity.  They would not have said things like "I did not see them as I do that pencil case, yet I saw them with the eyes of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me - though at the time, they were covered with a cloth", 'he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain', etc.}}
===Response===
*Again, the historical record appears to be misrepresented. Consider the following:
<blockquote>
''And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true.''<br>&mdash;From the [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss Testimony of Three Witnesses]
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
''Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship.''<br>&mdash;[http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/eghtwtns From the Testimony of Eight Witnesses]
</blockquote>
*Critics wish to suggest that the witnesses’ encounter with the angel and the plates took place solely in their minds. They claim that witnesses saw the angel in a “vision” and equate “vision” with imagination. To bolster this claim they generally cite two alleged quotes from Martin Harris. Supposedly Harris was once asked if he saw the plates with his “naked eyes” to which he responded, “No, I saw them with a spiritual eye.” In another interview Harris allegedly claimed that he only saw the plates in a “visionary or entranced state.”  It is uninformed and misleading to present these quotes without the many other statements made by Harris and the other witnesses.  Further, MormonThink's claims are unfaithful to the historical record, which is surprising, given MormonThink's stated goal of presenting accurate history. There can be no historical doubt that the witnesses regarded their vision of the plates as tangible and literal.
*{{ReadMore|Book of Mormon witnesses/Spiritual or literal|"Eye of Faith"/"Spiritual Eye" statements by Martin Harris|l1=Book of Mormon witnesses&mdash;Spiritual or literal?|l2="Spiritual Eye" statements by Martin Harris}}
 
==Some of the witnesses should have been skeptics==
{{Heading2|13. Some of the witnesses should have been critics or skeptics and not related to each other.  Each witness should have written their own testimony instead of merely signing a pre-prepared statement.}}
===Response===
*It is strange to imply that ''enemies'' of Joseph Smith ought to have been included as witnesses. The Lord only granted that privilege to those who humbled themselves and were honestly seeking the truth, not to those who were attempting to destroy it. The Lord Himself set the requirements for being a witness:
*{{s||DC|5|23-25}}
<blockquote>
''And now, again, I speak unto you, my servant Joseph, concerning the man that desires the witness—Behold, I say unto him, he exalts himself and does not humble himself sufficiently before me; but if he will bow down before me, and humble himself in mighty prayer and faith, in the sincerity of his heart, then will I grant unto him a view of the things which he desires to see. And then he shall say unto the people of this generation: Behold, I have seen the things which the Lord hath shown unto Joseph Smith, Jun., and I know of a surety that they are true, for I have seen them, for they have been shown unto me by the power of God and not of man.''
</blockquote>
*From the time that the ''Book of Mormon'' was first published, the testimonies of the Three and Eight Witnesses were printed over their names as part of the book. At no time throughout their lives did any of these 11 men dispute what was printed in the thousands of copies of the book that went throughout the world.
* It is inaccurate to claim that none of the witnesses were skeptical&mdash;for example, Martin Harris took repeated steps to test Joseph's story by visiting Charles Anthon and swapping Joseph's seer stone for another which matched it.  The witnesses used their critical faculties&mdash;but they were not unremittingly hostile.
*{{ReadMore|Book of Mormon witnesses/Character|l1=The character of the Book of Mormon witnesses}}
 
==The Church should have been the first to "proclaim equality for blacks"==
{{Heading2|14. God's true church would likely have been one of the first churches to proclaim equality for blacks instead of the last major religion in America to accept blacks as equals.}}
===Response===
*The Church was actually quite progressive with regard to its attitude towards blacks during a time when slavery was an accepted part of American society. The site simplistically uses a 21st-century term "equality for blacks" without any regard for the social fabric of the 19th-century society in which this would have occurred.
*{{ReadMore|Blacks and the priesthood}}
 
==The "Curse of Cain" would never have been taught==
{{Heading2|15. There would never have been teachings such as blacks received the curse from Cain for being less valiant in the pre-existence, or that they are destined to be servants only in the next life.}}
===Response===
*The concept of the "Curse of Cain" was a ''Protestant'' invention, and existed long before the Church was organized in 1830. The idea that the “mark of Cain” and the "curse of Ham" was a black skin is something that was used by many Protestants as a way to morally and biblically justify slavery. This idea did not originate with Latter-day Saints, although the existence of the priesthood ban prior to 1978 tends to cause some people to assume that it was a Latter-day Saint concept. Early Latter-day Saint leaders who converted from Protestantism brought along many of their previous beliefs regarding the "Curse of Cain."
* The site's fundamentalism is showing&mdash;the LDS do not see prophets as men removed from their environment, or without the weakness or perspectives of their host culture.
*{{ReadMore|Blacks and the priesthood/The "curse of Cain" and "curse of Ham"|l1=The "curse of Cain" and "curse of Ham"}}
 
==Polygamy would never have been practiced==
{{Heading2|16. Polygamy would have never been practiced.  If it was really commanded by God, then it would have been done differently.  It would have been practiced openly, honestly and with dignity, with no marriages to women already married or to underage girls.  Joseph's wife would have full knowledge of the marriages and would have had to give her permission for each one.  And probably one additional wife would have been sufficient instead of at least 33 wives for Joseph.}}
===Response===
*The authors of the site simply assume that the practice of polygamy could never have been ordained by God. They then further qualify this by saying the ''if'' it ''were'' ordained of God, then the way that the Church practiced it was not the ''correct'' way, even going so far as to determine just ''how many'' wives would have been "sufficient"!
*This is a gross over-simplification of an extremely complex and difficult issue that faced the early Saints. The assumptions made by ''MormonThink'' diminish the tremendous sacrifice made by early Church members, both men and women, to practice something that they sincerely believed that the Lord had commanded them to do. The application of such naive, trite, 21st-century retro-thinking to this issue is unlikely to provide any real understanding.
* The critic ignores that most nineteenth century members felt at least as strongly about these matters as he does&mdash;yet, many reported powerful spiritual experiences which convinced them of the rightness of Joseph's course of action.  Such a witness is equally available to modern members who are troubled as it was to those of Joseph's day.
*{{ReadMore|Joseph Smith and polygamy|Plural_marriage_spiritual_manifestations|l2=Divine manifestations to plural wives and families}}
 
==Joseph would not have claimed that a Greek psalter was a dictionary of Egyptian hieroglyphics==
{{Heading2|17. Joseph would not have proclaimed that a Greek Psalter was really a dictionary of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics.  He would have either said what it really was, or that he just didn't know.}}
===Response===
*This claims stems from a single hostile source: Henry Caswall. There is no other evidence of Henry Caswall's claim save his own anti-Mormon work. That Caswall took no steps in Nauvoo to get Joseph on record is fatally suspicious, since this was the entire reason he claimed to be there. He is also clearly attempting to make Joseph Smith appear uncouth and ignorant, having him say "them plates" and "them characters", when this contrasts markedly with other known examples of Joseph's speaking and writing style at the time.
* Furthermore, Joseph was familiar enough with Greek to recognize Greek characters, and so is unlikely to have mistaken them for an unknown language—even if we believe Joseph was attempting to deceive Caswall, it seems unlikely he would fail to recognize the characters of a language he had studied. Critics who tell this story rarely provide the source details for the tale, and do not inform their readers about John Taylor's witness regarding Caswall's later dishonesty.  
*{{ReadMore|Joseph Smith/Greek psalter|l1=Joseph Smith and the Greek psalter}}


==Modern prophets would prophesy in the same manner as Joseph did==
The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." For years that site claimed to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they were "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attended Church&mdash;they did ''not'' accept the Church's truth claims, and they had no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FairMormon as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."
{{Heading2|18. The prophets since Joseph, including the current one, would have the same prophetic abilities Joseph had.  They would finish the translation of the Bible that Joseph started, and they would get answers from God for the many troubling issues members have about the history and doctrine of the Church like blacks and the priesthood or the Book of Abraham papyri translation problems.}}
===Response===
*Joseph was establishing the Church. He therefore had to receive constant and ongoing instruction in order to do so.
*The web site authors appear to believe that a prophet should simply ask God to answer all of the tough questions in life. This was certainly ''not'' how Joseph operated:


: Toward the end of his life [Joseph] told a Pittsburgh reporter that he could not always get a revelation when he needed one, but "he never gave anything to his people as revelation, unless it was revelation."{{ref|bushman.1}}
Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apologetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, and and ending summary which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers' sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.
*{{ReadMore|Prophets don't prophesy|Fallibility of prophets|Revelation after Joseph Smith|l1=LDS prophets don't prophesy?|l2=Prophetic inerrancy?|l3=Revelation after Joseph Smith}}


==The endowment would not have any relation to Masonry==
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon}}
{{Heading2|19. The temple endowment ceremony would not have come from the Masonry rituals that began in the middle ages.}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Problems}}
===Response===
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon}}
*Joseph Smith's critics want to label him as an intellectual thief by claiming that he stole some of the ritual elements of Freemasonry in order to create the Nauvoo-era temple endowment ceremony. The greatest obstacles to this theory are the facts that
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon}}
#Joseph Smith claimed direct revelation from God regarding the Nauvoo-era endowment,
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses}}
#Joseph Smith knew a great deal about the Nauvoo-era endowment ceremony long before the Nauvoo period - and thus long before his entry into the Masonic fraternity, and
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation }}
#The Nauvoo-era temple endowment ceremony has numerous exacting parallels to the initiation ceremonies of ancient Israelite and early Christian kings and priests—parallels which cannot be found among Freemasons.
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision}}
*{{ReadMore|Temple endowment and Freemasonry}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Book of Abraham}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph's Translation of the Bible}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Blacks and the Priesthood}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Doctrine & Covenants}}


==The endowment "would not be so secretive"==
===<span style="color:green">The "Spin Free" Section</span>===
{{Heading2|20. The temple endowment ceremony would be a spiritual, uplifting experience for everyone that went through it, and it probably would not be so secretive.}}
The following articles extract all of the primary and secondary source quotes from the critical site, places them within their original context when possible, and provides links to the original sources online. This allows you to read the critics' articles free of critical or apologetic "spin." You read the quotes and decide for yourself what to think, without any help from FairMormon or from the critics at MormonThink. If you want to check the sources, we make it easy to go back and look at the originals whenever possible. We won't tell you what to think, and neither will the critics.
===Response===
*The endowment ''is'' a spiritual, uplifting experience for those that go through it.
*What the web site authors are really saying here is that they would prefer that the endowment was different in some way. This is ironic, considering that the next criticism they offer is that the Church has ''changed'' the endowment ceremony over the years, and these changes have continued to keep the endowment in line with modern attitudes.
*We consider temple ordinances to be very sacred in nature&mdash;we do not invite or encourage the public to make it a spectacle. Consider that the text of the endowment in its various forms has been published by critical sources for many years. Why, then, are members supposed to refrain from discussing it outside the temple? Because these things, whether or not the public mocks them openly, are sacred to Latter-day Saints. We make our covenants in the temple with God, not the general public. We honor those covenants even in the face of mockery and criticism that we are attempting to keep "secrets."


==The endowment would not have changed==
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
{{Heading2|21. The temple endowment ceremony would never have had...uncomfortable penalties, oath of vengeance, etc. would never have been in there either.  If any of these things were really from God, then they'd still be in the ceremony now.}}
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
===Response===
|page=Translation of the Book of Mormon
*'''NOTE''': FAIR inserted the ellipsis in the quote above to avoid displaying temple content that was removed from the ceremony in the early 1990s. Although this particular content is no longer part of the temple ceremony, it was at the time many of us went through the temple. The covenants that we made with the Lord are still in force, and we will therefore not discuss such content in this forum.
}}
* The critic seems unwilling to accept that the endowment is a ''symbolic'' ordinance.  As John A. Widtsoe of the Twelve noted:
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
:We live in a world of symbols. No man or woman can come out of the temple endowed as he should be, unless he has seen, beyond the symbol, the mighty realities for which the symbols stand.{{ref|widtsoe.1}}
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
* Symbols have no meaning, save that which the audience gives to them.  As times and culture changes, the meaning and implication of symbols also changes.  The purpose of the endowment is to teach the ''reality'' for which the symbols stand.  Why is it therefore surprising that the symbolic ''means'' to teach those truths would be adjusted to suit the needs of a different time?  Would the critics be any happier if archaic symbols that communicated the wrong message were left in place just because of 'tradition'&mdash;we suspect not.  If so, ''that'' criticism would probably find its way onto a similar list as this one.
|page=Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
*{{ReadMore|Temple endowment changes|Penalties in the endowment}}
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Witnesses
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The First Vision
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Kinderhook Plates
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Conflicts with Science
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Joseph Running with the Plates
}}


==The name of the Church would never have changed==
{{SummaryItem
{{Heading2|22. The Church would have always had the same, correct name since it was formed in 1830 and not changed four years later to a name that didn't even include Christ in the name. It would not have to change it again another four years later to yet another name.}}
|link=Book of Mormon/Plagiarism accusations/Comoros Islands and Moroni/Captain Kidd
===Response===
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni"
*The only name for the Church established by revelation was the one mentioned in {{s||DC|115|3}}. This is not to suggest that the members did not consider it the "Church of Christ," before and after the name change. Latter-day Saints have never held such ideas—they believe that God gives a fair amount of leeway to His children as they seek to learn and do His will. And, they remain confident that God will speak by revelation when necessary to ensure that His Church will not stray from His intentions.
|summary=Grant Palmer published a paper called "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni" in the ''John Whitmer Historical Association Journal'' in 2014. Palmer asserts that Joseph Smith acquired the names "Cumorah" and "Moroni" by reading stories of Captain Kidd in his youth. Palmer concludes that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni" <ref>Grant Palmer, John Whitmer Historical Association vol. 34 no. 1 Spring/Summer 2014</ref> We respond to these claims in this article.
*{{ReadMore|Name of the Church}}
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Kirtland Temple Dedication
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Kirtland Temple Dedication"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/glossary/kirtlandtemplededication.htm}})Regarding the heavenly manifestations that accompanied the Kirtland Temple dedication, Mormonthink concludes that "It's likely that Joseph said he was seeing something angelic and told the congregation what he claimed to be seeing. Those in attendance relayed what Joseph said he saw. Everyone was so excited for this grand event, that they likely got caught up in the moment and imagined some extraordinary things."
|L1=Response to claim: "Some who were genuinely drunk probably added fuel to the environment by claiming to see things just to support their beloved prophet"
|L2=Response to claim: "Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple....However, Elias and Elijah are the same person"
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview
|subject=Overview of the MormonThink website
|summary=The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.  
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|subject=Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm}}) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FairMormon's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FairMormon believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
}}


==There would be no conflict between testimony and science==
{{FairMormonBlogBar
{{Heading2|23. Testimonies wouldn't have to override facts and conflict with science.}}
|title=A Yankee Lawyer’s Guide to the “Mormon Apocalypse”
===Response===
|link=https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2014/02/17/a-yankee-lawyers-guide-to-the-mormon-apocalypse
*Consider if such a statement were made in the 19th century. Many of the "facts" established by science at that time are laughable today. Do the web site authors now consider all science and facts to be known?
|author=SteveDensleyJr
* Most informed members do not regard their testimonies in conflict with the "facts" or "science."  Indeed, Church belief and activity ''increases'' with the amount of secular education which someone receives&mdash;this pattern bucks the trend in most faiths, suggesting that there is something intellectually compelling and satisfying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
|date=February 17, 2014
*{{ReadMore|Mormonism and science|Mormonism_and_education/Education_and_belief|l2=Does education threaten belief?}}
|summary=A British man named Tom Philips has filed a fraud action in England against President Thomas Monson and is claiming that it will bring on the “Mormon Apocalypse.” However, rather than inciting fear and panic among the faithful, if they know about the case at all, the most common response is one of bewilderment among Mormons and non-Mormons alike. That is due partly to the fact that it seems quite odd that someone would pursue a case for fraud that is based on faith claims and personal opinions. But, at least for Americans, the odd nature by which the claim has arisen procedurally is equally puzzling.
<br>
As an American civil defense lawyer, I think I have been as befuddled by this case as anyone. So I’ve consulted British lawyers and legal sources and come up with the following guide to what Phillips has called, the “Mormon Apocalypse.”
}}


==Everyone who prays about the Church or the Book of Mormon would receive the same answer==
{{endnotes sources}}
{{Heading2|24. If testimonies are real, then everyone that prays about the Church or the Book of Mormon should get the same confirming answers.}}
===Response===
*This misunderstands the LDS doctrine of seeking truth. The authors of the web site think that the search for spiritual truth should be a simple, one-step process of praying and waiting for the answer to come. Note the ''conditions'' that Moroni placed on his promise:
*{{s||Moroni|10|4}}
<blockquote>
''And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.''
</blockquote>
*Prayer is only ''one'' part of the process. If you pray ''without'' having a sincere heart, or ''without'' real intent, or ''lacking'' faith in Christ, then you will get the answer that you are seeking&mdash;nothing. In other words, those who pray and expect not to receive an answer, will ''not'' receive an answer.
* Besides, how does the critic know ''what'' answer anyone else gets?  Each person only has access to his own experience.  How do we know others are truthful about their experiences?  How do we know the critic is truthful about his?  We do not.  We cannot.  We can only trust God and follow our own mind and heart&mdash;which is how it is intended to be.  Truth is not discovered or declared by "majority rules."
*{{ReadMore|Burning in the bosom}}


==The Church would be the "most honest of organizations"==
{{Heading2|25. The true church would be the most honest of organizations.  It would never publish artwork or articles in its official magazines that mislead readers as to how the Book of Mormon was translated, or that Joseph was alone when Moroni visited him.  It wouldn't sugarcoat its history.  The true church would be totally open and disclose what the leaders get paid (even public corporations do that).  They would publish their financial statements and budgets as do many other churches.  The true church would teach everything honestly and lead by example.  It would not change the wording in its lesson manuals to act as if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young only had one wife each.  You should never have to worry that there is another side of its history not taught by the church itself.}}
===Response===
*Artists, whether they be members of the Church or not, do not set out to mislead those who view their work. Art is the interpretation of the individual artist. The fact that the Church chooses to use the works of individual artists that may not be accurate as to historical details does not mean that the Church is attempting to be dishonest.
*{{ReadMore|Church art and historical accuracy}}
*The site naively states that "even public corporations" disclose what their leaders get paid. Public corporations are ''required'' to provide such information to their stockholders&mdash;''private'' organizations are not.
*The constant refrain from critics for the Church to make its financial dealings public is based upon a belief that funds are being used in a dishonest manner. Indeed, the very theme of ''MormonThink'' is that the Church is dishonest. Critics are frustrated that, as a private organization, the Church is not obligated to disclose its financial dealings.
*The constant accusations of dishonesty lead us to ask the question: Where do the critics think that this dishonesty is introduced? At the bishopric level? At the stake level? At the regional level? In the Quorum of the Twelve? It is difficult to imagine how a church which is operated primarily through lay leadership could institutionalize dishonesty in the manner in which the critics claim.
*{{ReadMore|No Paid Ministry}}
*Regarding the accusation that lesson manuals ought to discuss polygamy, the most accurate response can be found in the 2008-2009 lesson manual ''Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith'', (2007), pages vii–xiii:
<blockquote>
'''Teachings for Our Day'''


This book deals with teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith that have application to our day. For example, this book does not discuss such topics as the Prophet’s teachings regarding the law of consecration as applied to stewardship of property. The Lord withdrew this law from the Church because the Saints were not prepared to live it (see D&C 119, section heading). This book also does not discuss plural marriage. The doctrines and principles relating to plural marriage were revealed to Joseph Smith as early as 1831. The Prophet taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and a number of such marriages were performed during his lifetime. Over the next several decades, under the direction of the Church Presidents who succeeded Joseph Smith, a significant number of Church members entered into plural marriages. In 1890, President Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto, which discontinued plural marriage in the Church (see Official Declaration 1). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints no longer practices plural marriage.
</blockquote>


==Endnotes==
[[es:La crítica del Mormonismo/Sitios web/PiensaMormón]]
#{{note|robinson.1}} {{FR-3-1-21}}
#{{note|sorenson.1}} {{Ensign1|author=John L. Sorenson|article=Digging into the Book of Mormon: Our Changing Understanding of Ancient America and Its Scripture, Part 1|date=September 1984|start=27}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll/ArchMagazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20september%201984%20.htm/digging%20into%20the%20book%20of%20mormon%20our%20changing%20understanding%20of%20ancient%20america%20and%20its%20scripture.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}} For second part of the article, see {{link|url=http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll/ArchMagazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20october%201984%20.htm/digging%20into%20the%20book%20of%20mormon%20our%20changing%20understanding%20of%20ancient%20america%20and%20its%20scripture%20part%202%20.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}
#{{note|bushman.1}} {{RSR1|start=xxi}} citing ''Pittsburgh Weekly Gazette'', September 15, 1843, ''Papers of Joseph Smith'' 1:443.
#{{note|widtsoe.1}} John A. Widtsoe, "Temple Worship," ''Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine'' (April 1921): 62.

Latest revision as of 20:20, 13 April 2024

A FairMormon Analysis of the critical website MormonThink.com



I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. twas fun.

—MormonThink's first managing editor, Feb. 21, 2012, 12:50PM. [1]
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An individual displays a sign advertising MormonThink.com during "The American Atheists Mass Resignation Event" at the April 2014 General Conference
∗       ∗       ∗

A FairMormon Analysis of claims made on the critical website MormonThink.com

Summary: The web site MormonThink.com originally claimed to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. They authors have since abandoned the pretense that any of them are "active" in the Church. The founding webmaster was, by his own admission, pretending to be semi-active in order to destroy members' and missionaries' testimonies from within the social structure of the Church. The site pretends to be "balanced" by presenting information and links to apologetic sites, however, the conclusions reached by the site consistently reflect negatively on the Church's truth claims. The site also sometimes contains a large amount of Temple content.


Jump to details:

Overview

The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." For years that site claimed to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they were "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attended Church—they did not accept the Church's truth claims, and they had no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FairMormon as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."

Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apologetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, and and ending summary which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers' sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Problems"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Witnesses"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The First Vision"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Book of Abraham"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Polygamy"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Tithing"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Temple"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants"


Jump to details:


The "Spin Free" Section

The following articles extract all of the primary and secondary source quotes from the critical site, places them within their original context when possible, and provides links to the original sources online. This allows you to read the critics' articles free of critical or apologetic "spin." You read the quotes and decide for yourself what to think, without any help from FairMormon or from the critics at MormonThink. If you want to check the sources, we make it easy to go back and look at the originals whenever possible. We won't tell you what to think, and neither will the critics.

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni"

Summary: Grant Palmer published a paper called "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni" in the John Whitmer Historical Association Journal in 2014. Palmer asserts that Joseph Smith acquired the names "Cumorah" and "Moroni" by reading stories of Captain Kidd in his youth. Palmer concludes that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni" [2] We respond to these claims in this article.

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Kirtland Temple Dedication"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/glossary/kirtlandtemplededication.htm)Regarding the heavenly manifestations that accompanied the Kirtland Temple dedication, Mormonthink concludes that "It's likely that Joseph said he was seeing something angelic and told the congregation what he claimed to be seeing. Those in attendance relayed what Joseph said he saw. Everyone was so excited for this grand event, that they likely got caught up in the moment and imagined some extraordinary things."

Jump to Subtopic:

Overview of the MormonThink website

Summary: The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.

Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FairMormon's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FairMormon believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.

The FAIR Blog responds to these questions

SteveDensleyJr,"A Yankee Lawyer’s Guide to the “Mormon Apocalypse”", FAIR Blog, (February 17, 2014)


A British man named Tom Philips has filed a fraud action in England against President Thomas Monson and is claiming that it will bring on the “Mormon Apocalypse.” However, rather than inciting fear and panic among the faithful, if they know about the case at all, the most common response is one of bewilderment among Mormons and non-Mormons alike. That is due partly to the fact that it seems quite odd that someone would pursue a case for fraud that is based on faith claims and personal opinions. But, at least for Americans, the odd nature by which the claim has arisen procedurally is equally puzzling.


As an American civil defense lawyer, I think I have been as befuddled by this case as anyone. So I’ve consulted British lawyers and legal sources and come up with the following guide to what Phillips has called, the “Mormon Apocalypse.”

Click here to view the complete article


Notes

  1. ↑ Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board Recovery from Mormonism, Feb. 21, 2012 at 12:50PM. After FairMormon posted this quote, the original was deleted from the RFM board. The original thread in which it appeared, however, still exists here: Thread Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?, Recovery from Mormonism, posted Feb. 20, 2012.
  2. ↑ Grant Palmer, John Whitmer Historical Association vol. 34 no. 1 Spring/Summer 2014
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