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Detailed response to CES Letter, Scriptures: Difference between revisions
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed..."== | ==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed..."== | ||
{{IndexClaimItemShort | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
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*[[Question: How can one approach reconciling confusing, seemingly disturbing, or otherwise troubling texts from the scriptures?]] | *[[Question: How can one approach reconciling confusing, seemingly disturbing, or otherwise troubling texts from the scriptures?]] | ||
*[[Question: Why does God act so violently in scripture and especially the Old Testament?]] | *[[Question: Why does God act so violently in scripture and especially the Old Testament?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...7. Numbers 21: 5-9"== | ==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...7. Numbers 21: 5-9"== | ||
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*[[Question: How can one properly view scriptural texts that appear to endorse genocide, pillage, and plunder in the Bible?]] | *[[Question: How can one properly view scriptural texts that appear to endorse genocide, pillage, and plunder in the Bible?]] | ||
*[[Question: Do the scriptures endorse murder?]] | *[[Question: Do the scriptures endorse murder?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism... 8. Judges 19:22-29"== | ==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29"== | ||
{{IndexClaimItemShort | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) | |title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) | ||
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*[[Question: Did God endorse rape in the Old Testament?]] | *[[Question: Did God endorse rape in the Old Testament?]] | ||
*[[Question: Are the scriptures misogynistic/sexist?]] | *[[Question: Are the scriptures misogynistic/sexist?]] | ||
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==Response to claim:"To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"== | ==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"== | ||
{{IndexClaimItemShort | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) | |title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) | ||
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'''Longer response(s) to question:''' | '''Longer response(s) to question:''' | ||
*[[Question: What is the best way to understand servitude in the Old and New Testaments?]] | *[[Question: What is the best way to understand servitude in the Old and New Testaments?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism"== | ==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism"== | ||
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'''Longer response(s) to question:''' | '''Longer response(s) to question:''' | ||
*[[Question: Do the scriptures promote racism?]] | *[[Question: Do the scriptures promote racism?]] | ||
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==Response to claim:"To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice"== | ==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice"== | ||
{{IndexClaimItemShort | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) | |title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) | ||
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'''Longer response(s) to question:''' | '''Longer response(s) to question:''' | ||
*[[Question: Does the Bible endorse human sacrifice?]] | *[[Question: Does the Bible endorse human sacrifice?]] | ||
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==Response to claim:"To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse"== | ==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse"== | ||
{{IndexClaimItemShort | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) | |title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) | ||
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'''Longer response(s) to question:''' | '''Longer response(s) to question:''' | ||
*[[Question: Do the scriptures endorse child abuse?]] | *[[Question: Do the scriptures endorse child abuse?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"== | ==Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"== | ||
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*[[Question: Did Nephi commit "cold blooded murder" when he killed Laban?]] | *[[Question: Did Nephi commit "cold blooded murder" when he killed Laban?]] | ||
*[[Question: Why didn't God simply preserve Nephi's life using divine power instead of requiring him to kill Laban?]] | *[[Question: Why didn't God simply preserve Nephi's life using divine power instead of requiring him to kill Laban?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"== | ==Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"== | ||
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}} | }} | ||
{{appeal to emotion}} | {{appeal to emotion}} | ||
'''Longer response(s) to question:''' | '''Longer response(s) to question:''' | ||
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*[[Question: Why would a loving God kill the firstborn of Egypt?]] | *[[Question: Why would a loving God kill the firstborn of Egypt?]] | ||
*[[Joseph Fielding Smith: "This was also in the similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ"]] | *[[Joseph Fielding Smith: "This was also in the similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ"]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"== | ==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"== | ||
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}} | }} | ||
{{appeal to ridicule}} | {{appeal to ridicule}} | ||
'''Longer response(s) to question:''' | '''Longer response(s) to question:''' | ||
*[[Question: Why are Old Testament penalties for disobedience so harsh?]] | *[[Question: Why are Old Testament penalties for disobedience so harsh?]] | ||
*[[JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy: "Filial insubordination is a grave offense because respect and obedience toward parents is regarded as the cornerstone of all order and authority"]] | *[[JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy: "Filial insubordination is a grave offense because respect and obedience toward parents is regarded as the cornerstone of all order and authority"]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "1. D&C 132"== | ==Response to claim: "1. D&C 132"== | ||
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*[[Question: Was Emma was promised "annihilation" if she didn't accept plural marriage?]] | *[[Question: Was Emma was promised "annihilation" if she didn't accept plural marriage?]] | ||
*[[Question: Was the only purpose of polygamy to "multiply and replenish the earth" and "bear the souls of men"?]] | *[[Question: Was the only purpose of polygamy to "multiply and replenish the earth" and "bear the souls of men"?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"== | ==Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"== | ||
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{{appeal to emotion}} | {{appeal to emotion}} | ||
{{appeal to ridicule}} | {{appeal to ridicule}} | ||
'''Longer response(s) to question:''' | '''Longer response(s) to question:''' | ||
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*[[Question: Do Latter-day Saints believe in a "part-time racist" and "psychopathic schizophrenic" god?]] | *[[Question: Do Latter-day Saints believe in a "part-time racist" and "psychopathic schizophrenic" god?]] | ||
{{ | {{FAIRAnalysisHeader | ||
|title=[[../|Letter to a CES Director]] | |||
|author=Jeremy Runnells | |||
|noauthor= | |||
|section=Scriptures Concerns & Questions | |||
|previous=[[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]] | |||
|next=[[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]] | |||
|notes= | |||
}} | |||
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<!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE --> | <!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE --> | ||
[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]] | [[Category:Letter to a CES Director]] | ||
Latest revision as of 20:21, 13 April 2024
Detailed response to CES Letter, Scriptures
| [[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]] | A FAIR Analysis of: [[../|Letter to a CES Director]], a work by author: Jeremy Runnells
|
[[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]] |
Response to section "Scriptures Concerns & Questions"
Summary: The author states that "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide, infanticide, rape, slavery, selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy, child abuse, stoning disobedient children, pillage, plunder, sexism, racism, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, killing people who work on the Sabbath, death penalty for those who mix cotton with polyester, and so on."
Jump to details:
- Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed..." (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...7. Numbers 21: 5-9" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "1. D&C 132" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
- Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well" (Source: Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013)
Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed..."
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...
[…]
As a believing Mormon, I tried to rationalize some of the craziness by saying, “Oh, this is in the crazy Old Testament when the Law of Moses was in force. Christ came and fulfilled the Law of Moses.”
The problem with this is that the crazy god of the Old Testament was Jehovah. Who’s Jehovah? The premortal Jesus Christ. So, Christ is the crazy god of the Old Testament. The Christ of the Old Testament and the Christ of the New Testament are light years different.
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
The author has many concerns about the scriptures. None of the things listed are "endorsed" by God. There are several things that can be misunderstood about the scriptures that can cause concern without a proper framework to view them through. Without it, it is easy to be bogged down by how critics misrepresent and misunderstand the scriptures. At the beginning of this section from the author, we give a suggested hermeneutic for viewing these things from the scriptures. It can show a unified purpose to some of that "craziness" in the Bible.
Longer response(s) to question:
- Question: How can one best read and understand the scriptures?
- Question: How can one approach reconciling confusing, seemingly disturbing, or otherwise troubling texts from the scriptures?
- Question: Why does God act so violently in scripture and especially the Old Testament?
Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...7. Numbers 21: 5-9"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...4. Exodus 12:12...7. Numbers 21: 5-9...
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
These are hard scriptures to understand. These are addressed in articles or articles linked to those articles below.
Longer response(s) to question:
- Question: How can one properly view scriptural texts that appear to endorse genocide, pillage, and plunder in the Bible?
- Question: Do the scriptures endorse murder?
Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
Longer response(s) to question:
- Question: Did God endorse rape in the Old Testament?
- Question: Are the scriptures misogynistic/sexist?
Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
"To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
Longer response(s) to question:
Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
Longer response(s) to question:
Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
Longer response(s) to question:
Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
Longer response(s) to question:
Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
The Lord commands Nephi to murder (decapitate) Laban for the brass plates. Never mind that Laban was drunk and defenseless. The argument that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees (Ether 2-3) for the Brother of Jared can also preserve Nephi.
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.
Longer response(s) to question:
- Jeffery R. Holland: "It is wrong to assume that Nephi in any way wished to take Laban’s life"
- Question: Did Nephi commit "cold blooded murder" when he killed Laban?
- Question: Why didn't God simply preserve Nephi's life using divine power instead of requiring him to kill Laban?
Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
4. Exodus 12:12 God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors? What kind of a god is this? Like the flood, what kind of a loving god would kill innocent children for the actions of others?
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Emotion—The author attempts to manipulate the reader's emotional response instead of presenting a valid argument.
Longer response(s) to question:
- Question: Why would a loving God would kill innocent children in the flood of Noah's day?
- Question: Why would a loving God kill the firstborn of Egypt?
- Joseph Fielding Smith: "This was also in the similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ"
Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
We should understand the bible in context and as a whole to grasp a fuller and more enlightening picture.Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.
Longer response(s) to question:
- Question: Why are Old Testament penalties for disobedience so harsh?
- JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy: "Filial insubordination is a grave offense because respect and obedience toward parents is regarded as the cornerstone of all order and authority"
Response to claim: "1. D&C 132"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
D&C 132: I’m supposed to believe in a god who issued an FLDS style revelation that states stuff like: the only form of polygamy permitted is a union with a virgin after first giving the opportunity to the first wife to consent to the marriage. If the first wife doesn’t consent, the husband is exempt and may still take an additional wife, but the first wife must at least have the opportunity to consent. In case the first wife doesn’t consent, she will be “destroyed.” Also, the new wife must be a virgin before the marriage and be completely monogamous after the marriage or she will be destroyed
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
Although it has been addressed elsewhere, it may be good to place responses to this claim here. The author distorts the scriptural intent. Claims of being "destroyed" are overdone. There is a possibility that the wife didn't have to be a virgin as the author claims v. 63 stipulates earlier on in the CES Letter under Concerns & Questions about Polygamy.
Longer response(s) to question:
- Question: Was Emma was promised "annihilation" if she didn't accept plural marriage?
- Question: Was the only purpose of polygamy to "multiply and replenish the earth" and "bear the souls of men"?
Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"
The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:
God doesn’t like to hear whining and ingratitude so he sends out a bunch of snakes to kill the people. When the people had enough of the snakes, they ask Moses to tell God to quit it. God decides Moses is persuasive and tells Moses to put a snake a pole and tell the people to look at the pole and they won’t die. So, the pole is built, the people look at it and they don’t die. The moral of the story? Don’t whine or God will send in the snakes. (Numbers 21:5-9: )
....
I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well.
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Emotion—The author attempts to manipulate the reader's emotional response instead of presenting a valid argument.
Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.
Longer response(s) to question:
- Elder Jeffery R. Holland: "it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any gods at all, they want them to be gods who do not demand much"
- Question: Why would God send poisonous serpents to kill the Children of Israel?
- Question: Do Latter-day Saints believe in a "part-time racist" and "psychopathic schizophrenic" god?
| [[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]] | A FAIR Analysis of: [[../|Letter to a CES Director]] A work by author: Jeremy Runnells
|
[[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]] |