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="MormonThink" list of items that would "make the Church true"=
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{{Epigraph|You say that I may have contributed to “accelerating someone’s journey through Mormonism”. That seems to imply that they would eventually leave Mormonism anyway so all I did was speed up the process. If that’s the case, I would say that I probably did them a favor. If they would eventually leave the church regardless then isn’t it better that they make that decision now and just move on?<br>&mdash;"Truthseeker," webmaster at MormonThink.com, email, July 7, 2009}}
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink
|H=A FairMormon Analysis of the critical website ''MormonThink.com''
|S=
|L1=
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{{Epigraph|I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. twas fun. <br><br>&mdash;MormonThink's first managing editor, Feb. 21, 2012, 12:50PM. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012 at 12:50PM. After FairMormon posted this quote, the original was deleted from the RFM board. The original thread in which it appeared, however, still exists here: Thread [http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,423418,423816 Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?], ''Recovery from Mormonism'', posted Feb. 20, 2012.</ref>
}}
[[File:Mormonthink supporter at april 2014 general conference.jpg|thumb|400px|center|An individual displays a sign advertising MormonThink.com during "The American Atheists Mass Resignation Event" at the April 2014 General Conference]]
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{{Epigraph|My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it.<br>&mdash;MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's second managing editor, David Twede (posting as "Jesus Smith"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012.</ref>
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{{Epigraph|Give me a Walter Martin anytime, a good stout wolf with his own fur on, instead of those more timid or sly parading around in their ridiculous fleeces with their teeth and tails hanging out. Give me "Ex-Mormons for Jesus" or the Moody Bible Tract Society, who are at least honest about their anti-Mormon agenda, instead of [those] camouflaged as..."Latter-day Saint[s]"....I prefer my anti-Mormons straight up.&mdash;Stephen Robinson{{ref|robinson.1}}}}
{{Epigraph|It is amazing to me that we are perceived as 'angry' for speaking against the lies of the church and the way in which we are maligned by them. Yet, Jeff Holland can huff and puff, shout and scream, dribble from his mouth and pound the pulpit while he tells blatant lies, and he is considered so 'spiritual'. The mind boggles at how dumb (or brainwashed) TBMs [True Believing Mormons] can be.<br>&mdash;MormonThink's third managing editor, Tom Phillips, posting as "anointed one" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', July 6, 2013. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's third and current managing editor (posting as "anointed one"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', July 6, 2013.</ref>
}}
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{{Epigraph|Am I still an active member of the LDS Church? Yes. I no longer believe it is the one, true church. I stay in primarily to help others just discovering the truth about Mormonism. We at MT think every member has the right to know about the true origins of Mormonism.<br>&mdash;Poster "mormonthink," 'I am the webmaster of MormonThink.com AMA', posted on ex-Mormon subreddit, January 28, 2012. {{link|url=https://pay.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/ozyfg/i_am_the_webmaster_of_mormonthinkcom_ama/}}
}}
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{{Epigraph|The leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been ordered to appear before a magistrate in England on fraud charges filed by a disaffected ex-Mormon who disputes fundamental teachings of the religion....The criminal complaint was lodged by Tom Phillips, a Mormon who said he withdrew from the Church after holding positions in England as bishop, stake president and area executive secretary. He now serves as managing editor of MormonThink, an online publication that critiques the Church's history and doctrine.<br>&mdash;Dennis Wagner, [http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/04/mormon-president-ordered-to-court/5216645/ "Mormon president ordered to appear in British court,"] ''USA TODAY'' (4 February 2014)
}}
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{{Epigraph|Mormons, your prophet is lame, deaf and mute.  Can he get a miracle cure?<br>&mdash;MormonThink editor David Twede, "No Miracles for the Lame, Deaf and Mute Monson," ''Mormon Disclosures'' February 7, 2014.}}
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{{Epigraph|This is an application on behalf of Mr. Monson....for the withdrawal of two summonses for fraud issued by this court on application by Mr. Phillips.....It would be relatively easy to state explicitly that Mr. Monson has made these specific representations, and when and how the misrepresentations were made. This has not been done.....It is obvious that this proposed prosecution attacks the doctrine and beliefs of the Mormon Church.... I am satisfied that the process of the court is being manipulated to provide a high-profile forum to attack the religious beliefs of others. It is an abuse of the process of the court....For the reasons given above, these summonses are withdrawn.<br>Judge Howard Riddle, Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate) in the Westminster Magistrate's Court, Thomas Phillips vs. Thomas Monson (20 March 2014) in response to the summonses facilitated by former MormonThink Managing Editor Tom Phillips. {{link|url=http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/thomas-phillips-v-thomas-monson.pdf}}
}}
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{{Epigraph|Phillips is not discouraged by the ruling, according to a statement put out by David Twede, a spokesman for MormonThink.com, where Phillips is the managing editor. "Although this ruling represents a setback for our cause, we remain steadfast in our commitment to bring the LDS Corporation to justice," Phillips is quoted as saying. "For people around the world, this case has brought to light the truth: The LDS organization has committed fraud, and fraud is a serious crime."<br>"British judge tosses fraud suit against Mormon prophet," ''Salt Lake Tribune'' (20 March 2014) {{link|url=http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57706938-78/church-court-lds-case.html.csp}}
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[[File:Mormonthink.chart.summary.png|center|frame]]
<onlyinclude>
{{H2
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink
|H=A FairMormon Analysis of claims made on the critical website ''MormonThink.com''
|S=The web site MormonThink.com originally claimed to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. They authors have since abandoned the pretense that any of them are "active" in the Church. The founding webmaster was, by his own admission, pretending to be semi-active in order to destroy members' and missionaries' testimonies from within the social structure of the Church. The site pretends to be "balanced" by presenting information and links to apologetic sites, however, the conclusions reached by the site consistently reflect negatively on the Church's truth claims. The site also sometimes contains a large amount of Temple content.
|L1=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
|L2=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Problems"
|L3=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
|L4=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"
|L5=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
|L6=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
|L7=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|L8=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Book of Abraham"
|L9=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"
|L10=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"
|L11=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"
|L12=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Polygamy"
|L13=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"
|L14=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
|L15=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
|L16=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Tithing"
|L17=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Temple"
|L18=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
|L19=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants"
}}
</onlyinclude>
==Overview==
<!--[[File:Mt.founding.editor.faith.destroying.RFM.jpg|right|600px]]
[[File:I.am.the.webmaster.of.mormonthink.AMA-2.jpg|right|600px]]-->


=Overview=
The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." For years that site claimed to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they were "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attended Church&mdash;they did ''not'' accept the Church's truth claims, and they had no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FairMormon as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."  
The web site "MormonThink" is an anti-Mormon web site that claims to be operated by members of the Church. Its purpose is to introduce members to as much information as possible in order to persuade them to "think" their way out of the Church. The site operators claim that they "would rather have a somewhat smaller church full of knowledgeable, loyal, full-believing members than a large church full of inactive, semi-believing members." The site is a popular reference for many anti-Mormon sites, since it claims to be balanced due to its inclusion of links to faith promoting sites such as FAIR. The site, however, is not merely an attempt to "steady the ark," but to lead people out of the church. The site's attitude toward religion is best summarized by their link to a routine by the late comedian George Carlin called "George Carlin - Religion is BS". According to "MormonThink":
<blockquote>
''Comedian George Carlin has a 10 minute bit on why all religion is phony. Although comedic (and irreverent), it does make you think.''
</blockquote>


And what, do you suppose, we are supposed to "think" about this? In FAIR's opinion, "MormonThink" is a wolf in sheep's clothing&mdash;a site which masquerades as a balanced site run by members, but with the true goal of leading people out of the Church.
Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apologetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, and and ending summary which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers' sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.


=A list of things that "would make the Church true"=
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon}}
According to MormonThink.com, if the Church were actually true, then "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website and FAIR's response. The questions come from the web page <nowiki>www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm</nowiki>.  Unsurprisingly, most are standard anti-Mormon fare, "asked and answered" a thousand times before.  Almost all of them appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Problems}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation }}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Book of Abraham}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph's Translation of the Bible}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Blacks and the Priesthood}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Doctrine & Covenants}}


==There would be no variations in the story of the First Vision==
===<span style="color:green">The "Spin Free" Section</span>===
{{Heading2|1. Joseph would have told the same version of the First Vision throughout his life. He would have gotten the details correct surrounding the most important, spectacular moment anyone could ever have in this life.}}
The following articles extract all of the primary and secondary source quotes from the critical site, places them within their original context when possible, and provides links to the original sources online. This allows you to read the critics' articles free of critical or apologetic "spin." You read the quotes and decide for yourself what to think, without any help from FairMormon or from the critics at MormonThink. If you want to check the sources, we make it easy to go back and look at the originals whenever possible. We won't tell you what to think, and neither will the critics.


===Response===
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
* Only a performer or con-man tells the same story in exactly the same words to every audience.
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
* Joseph's accounts of the First Vision are both stable and consistent through time.
|page=Translation of the Book of Mormon
* The supposed "contradictions" are more in the minds of critics than in the texts themselves.
}}
* {{LearnMore|First_Vision/Accounts|l1=First Vision: accounts}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Witnesses
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The First Vision
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Kinderhook Plates
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Conflicts with Science
}}
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Joseph Running with the Plates
}}


==Joseph's siblings would have been awakened by Moroni==
{{SummaryItem
{{Heading2|2. Joseph's five brothers (and probably the rest of the household) that were sleeping in his room on September 21, 1823 would have been awakened by the presence of Moroni.  They would have testified of his visit as well.}}
|link=Book of Mormon/Plagiarism accusations/Comoros Islands and Moroni/Captain Kidd
===Response===
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni"
*This is, quite possibly, one of the most ridiculous claims that FAIR has encountered, yet "MormonThink" spends over 3600 words attempting to explain it (<nowiki>http://www.mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm</nowiki>). FAIR's response is much simpler:
|summary=Grant Palmer published a paper called "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni" in the ''John Whitmer Historical Association Journal'' in 2014. Palmer asserts that Joseph Smith acquired the names "Cumorah" and "Moroni" by reading stories of Captain Kidd in his youth. Palmer concludes that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni" <ref>Grant Palmer, John Whitmer Historical Association vol. 34 no. 1 Spring/Summer 2014</ref> We respond to these claims in this article.
<blockquote>
}}
''For with God nothing shall be impossible.''<br>{{s||Luke|1|37}}
{{SummaryItem
</blockquote>
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Kirtland Temple Dedication
*If God wanted Moroni's visit to be apparent only to Joseph, then He certainly had the capability to do so.
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Kirtland Temple Dedication"
 
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/glossary/kirtlandtemplededication.htm}})Regarding the heavenly manifestations that accompanied the Kirtland Temple dedication, Mormonthink concludes that "It's likely that Joseph said he was seeing something angelic and told the congregation what he claimed to be seeing. Those in attendance relayed what Joseph said he saw. Everyone was so excited for this grand event, that they likely got caught up in the moment and imagined some extraordinary things."
==Joseph would not have translated using a stone in a hat==
|L1=Response to claim: "Some who were genuinely drunk probably added fuel to the environment by claiming to see things just to support their beloved prophet"
{{Heading2|3. If the angel did indeed take back the gold plates and the urim and thummim from Joseph when Martin Harris lost the first 116 pages, he would have returned the urim and thummim to Joseph when he returned the gold plates to him, instead of having Joseph finish the translation using a common stone he found when digging a well.}}
|L2=Response to claim: "Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple....However, Elias and Elijah are the same person"
==Joseph would have looked at the gold plates while he translated==
}}
{{Heading2|4. Joseph would likely have actually used the gold plates in the translation process, instead of putting an ordinary stone in a hat without even looking at the plates.}}
{{SummaryItem
==Joseph would have re-translated the lost 116 pages==
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview
{{Heading2|5. When the 116 pages were lost, Joseph would have simply retranslated the 'stolen' pages. If the pages were really stolen by evil men bent on foiling Joseph, the pages would have resurfaced in some form - either as a ransom attempt or foiled attempt to discredit Joseph. The stolen pages wouldn't have simply been destroyed by men who went to such trouble to obtain them.}}
|subject=Overview of the MormonThink website
====Response====
|summary=The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.  
*The web site takes a very pedestrian view of the incident of the lost 116 pages. The Lord taught Joseph an important lesson with the loss of the manuscript, and He provided an alternate text to compensate. The Lord ''commanded'' Joseph not to retranslate the pages, therefore this is really an issue of whether or not one believes that Joseph was actually a prophet. Had the pages not been lost, we would not have the following:
}}
*{{s||DC|3|6-10}}
{{SummaryItem
<blockquote>
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.
|subject=Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm}}) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FairMormon's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FairMormon believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble.
}}
Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall.
But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work.
</blockquote>
{{parabreak}}


==The translation of the papyri and facsimilies would match that performed by Egyptologists==
{{FairMormonBlogBar
{{Heading2|6. The translation of the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham would match what Egyptologists say they mean. The rediscovered papyri would also support the Book of Abraham as well.}}
|title=A Yankee Lawyer’s Guide to the “Mormon Apocalypse”
==There would be no Book of Mormon anachronisms==
|link=https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2014/02/17/a-yankee-lawyers-guide-to-the-mormon-apocalypse
{{Heading2|7. The Book of Mormon would not mention things that did not exist in the Americas during Book of Mormon times such as horses, elephants, cattle, goats, wheat, barley, silk, steel, etc. It would probably mention things that did exist such as corn, yams, beans, squash, llamas, sloths, jaguars, and monkeys.}}
|author=SteveDensleyJr
==Archaeology and linguistics would support the Book of Mormon==
|date=February 17, 2014
{{Heading2|8. The BOM would be supported by archeological and linguistic evidence. Perhaps not so much evidence that we still wouldn't need faith, but something to show that the ancient Jews could have been in America.}}
|summary=A British man named Tom Philips has filed a fraud action in England against President Thomas Monson and is claiming that it will bring on the “Mormon Apocalypse.” However, rather than inciting fear and panic among the faithful, if they know about the case at all, the most common response is one of bewilderment among Mormons and non-Mormons alike. That is due partly to the fact that it seems quite odd that someone would pursue a case for fraud that is based on faith claims and personal opinions. But, at least for Americans, the odd nature by which the claim has arisen procedurally is equally puzzling.
===Response===
<br>
*The site authors are attempting to define just ''how much evidence is required'' in order to have faith. This is not only presumptuous and absurd, but it contradicts the scriptures. Moroni states that confirmation ''follows'' the exercise of faith, rather than the other way around:
As an American civil defense lawyer, I think I have been as befuddled by this case as anyone. So I’ve consulted British lawyers and legal sources and come up with the following guide to what Phillips has called, the “Mormon Apocalypse.”
<blockquote>
}}
''And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.''<br>&mdash;{{s||Ether|12|6}}
</blockquote>
* Many believers, including members of FAIR, believe
*For issues related to the ''Book of Mormon'' and archaeology, see: [[Book of Mormon archaeology]].


==There would be evidence of large battles at the Hill Cumorah==
{{endnotes sources}}
{{Heading2|9. There would be some remains of two large battles at the Hill Cumorah where over two million people fought and died.}}
==DNA would prove that Native Americans descended from Israel==
{{Heading2|10. DNA evidence would support that the American Indians and South American peoples descended from Israel.}}
==Joseph would have claimed that the Kinderhood plates were a fraud==
{{Heading2|11. Joseph would have either denounced the Kinderhook Plates as a fraud, or at least said he didn't know what they were.}}
==The witnesses statements would have been more definitive==
{{Heading2|12. The witnesses would have said all objective statements testifying of the BOM's divinity.  They would not have said things like "I did not see them as I do that pencil case, yet I saw them with the eyes of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me - though at the time, they were covered with a cloth", 'he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain', etc.}}
==Some of the witnesses should have been skeptics==
{{Heading2|13. Some of the witnesses should have been critics or skeptics and not related to each other.  Each witness should have written their own testimony instead of merely signing a pre-prepared statement.}}
==The Church should have been the first to "proclaim equality for blacks"==
{{Heading2|14. God's true church would likely have been one of the first churches to proclaim equality for blacks instead of the last major religion in America to accept blacks as equals.}}
==The "Curse of Cain" would never have been taught==
{{Heading2|15. There would never have been teachings such as blacks received the curse from Cain for being less valiant in the pre-existence, or that they are destined to be servants only in the next life.}}
==Polygamy would never have been practiced==
{{Heading2|16. Polygamy would have never been practiced.  If it was really commanded by God, then it would have been done differently.  It would have been practiced openly, honestly and with dignity, with no marriages to women already married or to underage girls.  Joseph's wife would have full knowledge of the marriages and would have had to give her permission for each one.  And probably one additional wife would have been sufficient instead of at least 33 wives for Joseph.}}
==Joseph would not have claimed that a Greek psalter was a dictionary of Egyptian hieroglyphics==
{{Heading2|17. Joseph would not have proclaimed that a Greek Psalter was really a dictionary of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics.  He would have either said what it really was, or that he just didn't know.}}
==Modern prophets would prophesy in the same manner as Joseph did==
{{Heading2|18. The prophets since Joseph, including the current one, would have the same prophetic abilities Joseph had.  They would finish the translation of the Bible that Joseph started, and they would get answers from God for the many troubling issues members have about the history and doctrine of the Church like blacks and the priesthood or the Book of Abraham papyri translation problems.}}
==The endowment would not have any relation to Masonry==
{{Heading2|19. The temple endowment ceremony would not have come from the Masonry rituals that began in the middle ages.}}
==The endowment "would not be so secretive"==
{{Heading2|20. The temple endowment ceremony would be a spiritual, uplifting experience for everyone that went through it, and it probably would not be so secretive.}}
==The endowment would not have changed==
{{Heading2|21. The temple endowment ceremony would never have had...uncomfortable penalties, oath of vengeance, etc. would never have been in there either.  If any of these things were really from God, then they'd still be in the ceremony now. [FAIR NOTE: the ellipsis contains temple content that was removed in the early 1990s]}}
==The name of the Church would never have changed==
{{Heading2|22. The Church would have always had the same, correct name since it was formed in 1830 and not changed four years later to a name that didn't even include Christ in the name.  It would not have to change it again another four years later to yet another name.}}
==There would be no conflict between testimony and science==
{{Heading2|23. Testimonies wouldn't have to override facts and conflict with science.}}


==Everyone who prays about the Church or the Book of Mormon would receive the same answer==
{{Heading2|24. If testimonies are real, then everyone that prays about the Church or the Book of Mormon should get the same confirming answers.}}


==The Church would be the "most honest of organizations"==
{{Heading2|25. The true church would be the most honest of organizations.  It would never publish artwork or articles in its official magazines that mislead readers as to how the Book of Mormon was translated, or that Joseph was alone when Moroni visited him.  It wouldn't sugarcoat its history.  The true church would be totally open and disclose what the leaders get paid (even public corporations do that).  They would publish their financial statements and budgets as do many other churches.  The true church would teach everything honestly and lead by example.  It would not change the wording in its lesson manuals to act as if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young only had one wife each.  You should never have to worry that there is another side of its history not taught by the church itself.}}


==Endnotes==
[[es:La crítica del Mormonismo/Sitios web/PiensaMormón]]
#{{note|robinson.1}} {{FR-3-1-21}}

Latest revision as of 20:20, 13 April 2024

A FairMormon Analysis of the critical website MormonThink.com



I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. twas fun.

—MormonThink's first managing editor, Feb. 21, 2012, 12:50PM. [1]
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An individual displays a sign advertising MormonThink.com during "The American Atheists Mass Resignation Event" at the April 2014 General Conference
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A FairMormon Analysis of claims made on the critical website MormonThink.com

Summary: The web site MormonThink.com originally claimed to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. They authors have since abandoned the pretense that any of them are "active" in the Church. The founding webmaster was, by his own admission, pretending to be semi-active in order to destroy members' and missionaries' testimonies from within the social structure of the Church. The site pretends to be "balanced" by presenting information and links to apologetic sites, however, the conclusions reached by the site consistently reflect negatively on the Church's truth claims. The site also sometimes contains a large amount of Temple content.


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Overview

The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." For years that site claimed to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they were "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attended Church—they did not accept the Church's truth claims, and they had no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FairMormon as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."

Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apologetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, and and ending summary which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers' sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.


Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Problems"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Witnesses"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The First Vision"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Book of Abraham"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Polygamy"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Tithing"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Temple"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"


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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants"


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The "Spin Free" Section

The following articles extract all of the primary and secondary source quotes from the critical site, places them within their original context when possible, and provides links to the original sources online. This allows you to read the critics' articles free of critical or apologetic "spin." You read the quotes and decide for yourself what to think, without any help from FairMormon or from the critics at MormonThink. If you want to check the sources, we make it easy to go back and look at the originals whenever possible. We won't tell you what to think, and neither will the critics.

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni"

Summary: Grant Palmer published a paper called "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni" in the John Whitmer Historical Association Journal in 2014. Palmer asserts that Joseph Smith acquired the names "Cumorah" and "Moroni" by reading stories of Captain Kidd in his youth. Palmer concludes that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni" [2] We respond to these claims in this article.

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Kirtland Temple Dedication"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/glossary/kirtlandtemplededication.htm)Regarding the heavenly manifestations that accompanied the Kirtland Temple dedication, Mormonthink concludes that "It's likely that Joseph said he was seeing something angelic and told the congregation what he claimed to be seeing. Those in attendance relayed what Joseph said he saw. Everyone was so excited for this grand event, that they likely got caught up in the moment and imagined some extraordinary things."

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Overview of the MormonThink website

Summary: The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.

Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FairMormon's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FairMormon believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.

The FAIR Blog responds to these questions

SteveDensleyJr,"A Yankee Lawyer’s Guide to the “Mormon Apocalypse”", FAIR Blog, (February 17, 2014)


A British man named Tom Philips has filed a fraud action in England against President Thomas Monson and is claiming that it will bring on the “Mormon Apocalypse.” However, rather than inciting fear and panic among the faithful, if they know about the case at all, the most common response is one of bewilderment among Mormons and non-Mormons alike. That is due partly to the fact that it seems quite odd that someone would pursue a case for fraud that is based on faith claims and personal opinions. But, at least for Americans, the odd nature by which the claim has arisen procedurally is equally puzzling.


As an American civil defense lawyer, I think I have been as befuddled by this case as anyone. So I’ve consulted British lawyers and legal sources and come up with the following guide to what Phillips has called, the “Mormon Apocalypse.”

Click here to view the complete article


Notes

  1. ↑ Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board Recovery from Mormonism, Feb. 21, 2012 at 12:50PM. After FairMormon posted this quote, the original was deleted from the RFM board. The original thread in which it appeared, however, still exists here: Thread Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?, Recovery from Mormonism, posted Feb. 20, 2012.
  2. ↑ Grant Palmer, John Whitmer Historical Association vol. 34 no. 1 Spring/Summer 2014
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